Slow Play/Pace of Play vs Rules and Handicap

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree 

How is a player suppose to reconcile the goal of a proper pace of play with the goal of shooting the lowest possible score?

That is the ultimate question, right?  Easy for a lot of people, but not so much for others.  In my opinion, at the recreational level, this is not really too much of a problem.

As we have all discussed ad nauseum on this website, slow play at the lower level comes from not playing ready golf, taking unnecessary time on the green trying to emulate pros, playing the back tees when you suck, etc, etc.

However, I think at the lowest competitive levels, that is where I think the goal of shooting low overtakes pace of play.  I have heard on this site that NCAA golf is notoriously slow, and I would guess that high school is similar in some places.  I am going to start playing the golf channel am tour this year, and have heard that it is ridiculously slow at times as well.

Some people recognize that pace of play and shooting well go hand in hand, and others think that the longer they take, the more deliberate they are, the better that they will do.  (Chan from this season of Big Break comes to mind)

We either accept those deliberate players as part of the game, or try and train them to speed up.  Perhaps be a lot more pro-active towards pace of play rules at the NCAA and mini tour levels, and your Ben Cranes and Kevin Na's will never have a chance to develop their slowness into a pattern.  Then the pace of play at the pro level is sped up, and it trickles down to the lower levels as well.

But for us recreational amateurs, does it matter?  Like I mentioned above, I don't think the slow play problem at our level is to be too much attributed to deliberate-ness, but rather etiquette and ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad 

  I am going to start playing the golf channel am tour this year, and have heard that it is ridiculously slow at times as well.

 

I am playing an GCAmTour event tomorrow. I've been playing in these tournaments since April and have played 8 rounds in total. I can tell you that only one was more than 5 hours and that was because the Tour event tee time was around noon after the member tee times. It was the club members that held us up.  More likely than not, an Am Tour round will be right at 4 1/2 hours in duration. I hope your experiience is similar.

They have a very aggressive pace of play policiy that is in accordance with Rule 6-7 of the USGA Rules of Golf, Undue Delay.

Holes 9 and 18 are considered checkpoints and the first group finish the 9th hole in 2 hours  15 minutes or less. All subsequent groups must finish the chekpoints within 14 minutes of the group ahead. Failing to meet these standards will subject everyone in the group to a one stroke penalty. It is possible, but not likely, that everyone in the group could receive a penalty at 9 (1) and another at 18 (2). Three strokes penalty added to your 18 hole score is incentive enough for everyone to maintain pace of play.

I've never heard of anyone being penalized,. and so far everyone I've played with has been conscious and cooperative about maintaining pace of play.

I have played with people who are deliberate with their preshot routine and putting, but they are ready to hit when it's their turn and most everyone adheres to the tour direction to utilize "continuous putting" strategy so time is wasted marking balls.
 

I know some people feel rushed but you can play in a normal pace just be ready to hit, take your time but don't waste time.  I believe playing too slow is worse for my game than playing a little bit quick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwave916 

I am playing an GCAmTour event tomorrow. I've been playing in these tournaments since April and have played 8 rounds in total. I can tell you that only one was more than 5 hours and that was because the Tour event tee time was around noon after the member tee times. It was the club members that held us up.  More likely than not, an Am Tour round will be right at 4 1/2 hours in duration. I hope your experiience is similar.

 

They have a very aggressive pace of play policiy that is in accordance with Rule 6-7 of the USGA Rules of Golf, Undue Delay.

 

Holes 9 and 18 are considered checkpoints and the first group finish the 9th hole in 2 hours  15 minutes or less. All subsequent groups must finish the chekpoints within 14 minutes of the group ahead. Failing to meet these standards will subject everyone in the group to a one stroke penalty. It is possible, but not likely, that everyone in the group could receive a penalty at 9 (1) and another at 18 (2). Three strokes penalty added to your 18 hole score is incentive enough for everyone to maintain pace of play.

 

I've never heard of anyone being penalized,. and so far everyone I've played with has been conscious and cooperative about maintaining pace of play.

 

I have played with people who are deliberate with their preshot routine and putting, but they are ready to hit when it's their turn and most everyone adheres to the tour direction to utilize "continuous putting" strategy so time is wasted marking balls.
 

I know some people feel rushed but you can play in a normal pace just be ready to hit, take your time but don't waste time.  I believe playing too slow is worse for my game than playing a little bit quick.

That's very good to hear.  Our tourneys here in LA/OC appear to start mostly in the morning, so those afternoon bogdowns hopefully won't be a problem.

To connect this back to the main topic, it sounds like, in your experience, the implementation of an "aggressive pace of play policy" is what works.  But how can that be applied at a public course?  You can't punish people with stroke penalties in recreational play, so what to do to drive them to speed up?

I don't think so. My experience regarding recreational golfers, slow play and the issues that contribute to it aren't caused by people trying to lower their scores. If anything it's the opposite. It's people playing the wrong tees with inadequate skill to be back there and the resulting errants shots they suffer trying to murder the ball with a big hit. Even the majority of the folks I see playing the correct tees typically haven't taken steps to lower scores if their swing is any indication. IMO it's easy to see who has been working on their game and who is just out there to have fun and drink beer. Again my experience is the guy with a pre-shot routine and taking time to line up putts, the goal being the lowest possible score, is not as slow as the group chasing balls all over the course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad 

That's very good to hear.  Our tourneys here in LA/OC appear to start mostly in the morning, so those afternoon bogdowns hopefully won't be a problem.

 

To connect this back to the main topic, it sounds like, in your experience, the implementation of an "aggressive pace of play policy" is what works.  But how can that be applied at a public course?  You can't punish people with stroke penalties in recreational play, so what to do to drive them to speed up?

There in lies the problem. What is the course operator going to do? He has to determine what actions to take to speed up play so as not to lose revenue because the faster players decide to go elsewhere without angering the slower players, and losing their business. A golf course has nothing to sell except time on the course and if it's all backed up it is lost revenue. I wonder if a lot of courses have given up trying to manage pace of play.....no matter what they do, somebody's angry.

I'm lucky enough to play a course that is staffed with some pretty good starters, rangers, and/or player assistants.  I love that title...ranger sounds too much like a cop. This golf course, Tobacco Road, a Mike Stranz design is more of a resort course with alot of people playing it for the first time. They are nearly as full in the afternoon as they are in the morning because of replays and guys trying to get in 36 after playing somewhere else in the morning.  I've had a lot of slow rounds out there, but if you'd ever seen the place you'd understand why they have to be out their working hard to maintain pace of play. This place has so many blind shots that they had to put bells at 1, 7, 13, 15, 18 to signal the group behind that it is OK to hit. There are a few more blind shots on the course that do not have the bells.

They work from 18 back to 1 pulling people ahead. Doesn't do any good to push from behind. I have yet to hear of them ever really getting on anyone about slow play, but they will help the group catch up. I've seen them help people search for balls. On some of the more difficult holes, especially those with blnd shots they will go ahead and act as forecaddie. They will stay with the group to help them catch up. .At the same time, or just after, someone goes back through the line up and gives everyone the heads up that the group ahead that was holding things up has picked up the pace, please keep up with the group ahead of you.

I don't see anything more a course operator can do other than have a golf course staffing strategy such as I've described. Signs haven't worked, clocks haven't  worked, rangers acting like cops haven't worked.

As far as the individual golfer is concerned, I don't see any answers there. I played with a group yesterday, slow as heck, but we had no one behind us. We lost sight of the group in front of us on 7 tee.  I started to get a little ansy and started jumping out of the cart to hit first with no regard to who had honors. I raked a bunker for a guy so he could go hit again. The speed of the group picked up and we had to wait to hit our second shots into 12...success, we'd caught up.  Slowest guy in the group on 14 tee says boy we've really slowed down all of a sudden. I had to stifle a laugh....this guy had no sense at all about what speed we were playing.

How do you make people change? Might as well try and catch the wind.

To the OP's question, slowing down does not equate to playing better...at least not for me.  I play quickly. Myself and a friend spent a week in Arizona where we were first tee time every morning and we were getting around in 2 1/2 hours. My scores were no better or worse than if I'd been playing in a foursome following a foursome that was out for a liesurely 5 hour round. So, I've never pondered the question.

A large part of slow play is what is done before a player starts to play his stroke.   It's a player standing around waiting for his playing companions when he could be using that time to set up his own shot.  It's Guy #1 who gets to his ball then waits because Guy #2 on the other side of the fairway is 1 yard farther away, and that guy stopped to help the Guy #3 search in the bushes for his ball, then stood around while the guy played a punchout and an approach, then finally sauntered up to his ball and took his usual sweet time about setting up his shot.  Guys #1 and #2 could have taken their shots, then gone back to help Guy #3 if he still hadn't found his ball.  That way the full 5 minute search wouldn't have been wasted with all 3 players not playing their approach shots.  I really can't recall the last time i took the full 5 minutes for a search, particularly when pace of play is a concern.  It depends on just what the area is like where the ball is thought to lie.  If it's unlikely that even a half hour search would locate it, then I don't look any longer than it takes for my companions to play.  I go to my provisional ball and get on with it.  Quite frankly, one or two strokes on 2 rounds out of 5 or 6 isn't going to have a significant effect on your handicap.  If this is a problem more often than that, maybe it's your course management skills that need some attention.

As typical amateurs golfers, we aren't good enough to worry about the small vagaries of wind as we make our strokes.  If that is an issue, then it's most likely that you misjudged it to begin with, or your subconscious tried to make a midswing adjustment and that's always going to be a recipe for disaster.  I watch the pros suffer through such breezy indecision and just shake my head, thinking that some poor guy is going to watch that on TV and think that somehow, he has to apply it to his game as well.  The only time I back away from a ball is when I take my stance and I can feel that something just isn't right.  If I feel comfortable over the ball, then I simply assume that my first judgement about wind and elevation was right and I let loose.  

Like MEFree, I don't like to be rushed.  At the same time, I'm a very fast player.  Most of the time, by the time I get to my ball and get out of the cart, I already know what I'm going to try to do.  Quite literally, I can park the cart and by the time 30 seconds has passed, I'm already moving to my next location if I don't have to wait on anyone else.  I don't sit and agonize over club selection or weather.  I have a fixed preshot routine, but I don't dilly-dally over the ball.  My routine from start to ball in flight takes about 10 seconds.  If one or more members of my group have hit wild and need to search, I will almost always go up and play my ball first before helping to look.  

And oh, by the way I do play by the rules, always.  The rules don't say that you must search for 5 minutes, only that 5 minutes is the maximum that you may search.   Depending on where I may have hit the ball, I may choose not to search at all, and that is not against the rules.  You read too much into the bit about striving for the best score possible.  What that refers to is not doing things like deliberately three putting to inflate your score, and thus, your handicap.  It has nothing to do with how long you may or may not choose to search for a misplaced ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad 

  I am going to start playing the golf channel am tour this year, and have heard that it is ridiculously slow at times as well.

 

I remember they had one in Pasadena back in March or so and it was very slow.

We're behind them and after almost 4hours we're still at 9th hole.....we quit after that.

I have played at both muni / public courses and private clubs.  In my limited experience, the pace of play at private clubs is much faster than on public courses.  The rangers at my course are constantly monitoring pace of play and nicely remind slow players to pick up the pace or they'll have the group behind play through.  A typical round takes just under 4 hours there usually.     

I've never seen a ranger on a public course do this, actually I usually don't see a ranger for the entire round. 

I've played courses where players were asked to pick up their ball. They complied or were asked to leave. I agree with this policy. Players are free to play as slowly as you want, as long as they're willing to play whatever fraction of the 18 holes that pace allows. Play faster and you get to enjoy all 18. Juat want to enjoy being outside? Go hiking instead - it's cheaper and nobody will hit a ball at you. Might get eaten by a bear though which I've heard is a downer.

I've never been to a private course that put groups out as frequent as a muni. At my fave local muni I can walk in and they'll put me in between groups. At my parents club I can't see the group ahead from the first tee and there's nobody waiting on deck ever. When I was a member there my dues far exceeded what it cost to golf. They can afford to space it out. In fact the board and club members control that. Everything from the speed of the greens to the depth of the rough is discussed at the meetings.

The tee time interval on my home course is 11 minutes, at the local muni it's 7 minutes.  Our club is the same way, we discuss and vote on the course setup and tee time interval. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512 

I've never been to a private course that put groups out as frequent as a muni. At my fave local muni I can walk in and they'll put me in between groups. At my parents club I can't see the group ahead from the first tee and there's nobody waiting on deck ever. When I was a member there my dues far exceeded what it cost to golf. They can afford to space it out. In fact the board and club members control that. Everything from the speed of the greens to the depth of the rough is discussed at the meetings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512 

I've never been to a private course that put groups out as frequent as a muni. At my fave local muni I can walk in and they'll put me in between groups.

This is a major cause of log jams on busy courses.  Come down south to Foothills and it won't happen.  A single will be put out with a short handed group, if such exists, and on some busy days it may take a while.  There were some days when I had trouble getting a single out, and often a twosome walking on is out of luck.  Our policy is 9 minute interval throughout most of the day (it's 8 and 9 alternating for the first 2-3 hours), and the tee sheet is inviolate.

As starters we were specifically told by the course management that squeezing is not allowed.  Not even for 9 holes on the back 9, not even if there is a slight gap between groups making the turn, not even if it's your best buddy.  It's simply a really bad policy.   We only do it for 9 holes on the back if there is an unused tee time between two groups, and even then only if they have maintained that gap for the front 9.  If I can see someone coming up the 9th fairway, then nobody goes off on 10.

Personally, I prefer to play courses which use a 10 minute interval.  That is more than sufficient to keep separation between groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL 


I've played 6 of these tournaments this past year. They have a very stringent pace of play rule and are consistent in applying it. I've never exceeded 4:45 for the round. Most were under 4 1/2. Slower than I personally prefer, but not silly slow by any means.
I'm sorry, but if you're claiming 4 hours for 9 holes, I simply don't believe you.

Well I don't know what to say....

4 hours might be a little too much, and I'm sorry for that part, but it was certainly over 3 hours.

We had to wait every single hole and there were always few groups in front of us waiting to tee up.

The rangers were there but did nothing and just watching.

My company have a monthly tournament there and they recently called asking for next schedule but we had to put it on hold due to this issue and they acknowledged problem from last time..

I think Brookside, Pasadena is well known for slow play??

Quote:

Originally Posted by justtapitin 

Well I don't know what to say....

4 hours might be a little too much, and I'm sorry for that part, but it was certainly over 3 hours.

 

We had to wait every single hole and there were always few groups in front of us waiting to tee up.

The rangers were there but did nothing and just watching.

 

My company have a monthly tournament there and they recently called asking for next schedule but we had to put it on hold due to this issue and they acknowledged problem from last time..

I think Brookside, Pasadena is well known for slow play??

April 27 next year is the upcoming season's Brookside event ... so avoid planning a round for that afternoon. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad 

April 27 next year is the upcoming season's Brookside event ... so avoid planning a round for that afternoon. 

Thank you for the info!!

Are you playing on that day?

If so, good luck!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by justtapitin 

Thank you for the info!!

 

Are you playing on that day?

If so, good luck!!!

No idea ... I haven't planned that far ahead, but probably not.  I have enough tournaments much closer to me that I don't think I need to bother with the further ones like that.  (Monarch Beach, Talega, Pelican Hill, Oak Creek twice, Tustin, so far ... and I don't think the schedule is full yet)