Who Pushes Off With Their Trail Leg?

[hoselpalooza]

how many of you push off with your trail foot in transition or during the downswing? any former ball players/pitchers or jumpers here who do this?

here's a video where sean foley discusses how justin rose pushes or "gets off" of the right side (should start at 3:44):

and as a former pitcher i can really relate to the movement he discusses here: 

Sean Foley: Push Off For More Power - Golf Digest

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Using leverage like a pitcher from the mound.

 

this is something i do and i think it's a good source of power. i focus on putting a lot of pressure into my rear heel as i load into my rear hip like tiger describes here, and just before i complete the backswing i get off of the right side with a little pushing or jumping motion that begins in the heel of the trail foot.

my last swing video shows me loading into the rear hip and foot pretty well, but the transition-to-downswing sequence wasn't ideal imo. among other things, i pushed off with the front of the trail foot which can cause me to jump out of shots and rotate too quickly. good for speed imho but not so much for consistency or the back.

[DaveP043]

What I hear Foley describe is that during the early part of the forward swing, the pressure on Rose's trail foot is decreasing.  In my mind, "pushing" would be indicated by an increase in pressure, not a decrease.  Watching the mechanics when Sean is swinging, the trail knee doesn't really begin to extend until after his hips have rotated forward a significant amount.  If anything, that's when the "push from the right" is happening.  The lead knee does extend early, as his hips rotate.  

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

What I hear Foley describe is that during the early part of the forward swing, the pressure on Rose's trail foot is decreasing. In my mind, "pushing" would be indicated by an increase in pressure, not a decrease.

Yup.

12 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Watching the mechanics when Sean is swinging, the trail knee doesn't really begin to extend until after his hips have rotated forward a significant amount.  If anything, that's when the "push from the right" is happening.

It's only extending then because the right hip is pulling it forward. The heel isn't lowering or "pushing" at that stage.

I see virtually no pushing here:

And in perusing some baseball sites, it seems that most people are of the understanding that pitchers "fall" forward now, they don't "push" off the rubber.

@mvmac posted these videos in another topic, and I pointed out to you in a PM or the other topic how Sean Foley in that video was talking about the pelvis and falling left.

I'm still interested to see the swings with pressure plate data where you think you're doing this, but I've not seen it in hundreds of PGA Tour swings, nor would it really make much sense to me at this point. Nor have I seen the leg muscles doing much in muscle activation (electrodes to detect muscle activity and the like).

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by iacas
replaced duplicate video

[hoselpalooza]

10 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

What I hear Foley describe is that during the early part of the forward swing, the pressure on Rose's trail foot is decreasing.  In my mind, "pushing" would be indicated by an increase in pressure, not a decrease.  Watching the mechanics when Sean is swinging, the trail knee doesn't really begin to extend until after his hips have rotated forward a significant amount.  If anything, that's when the "push from the right" is happening.  The lead knee does extend early, as his hips rotate.  

there's a really easy way for you to feel what's being discussed here. spread your feet apart -- more than shoulder width -- and push into the ground with your right heel to shift your pressure to your left side using a similar motion to a sprinter coming off of the starting blocks. does this make sense or could i make this more clear?

if you do this right you'll notice you don't need to extend your right leg/knee to generate a good amount of force. i think this is what makes it difficult for people to understand what's happening with the naked eye alone.

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

i think this is what makes it difficult for people to understand what's happening with the naked eye alone.

I'm not using "the naked eye alone."

[hoselpalooza]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yup.

It's only extending then because the right hip is pulling it forward. The heel isn't lowering or "pushing" at that stage.

I see virtually no pushing here:

And in perusing some baseball sites, it seems that most people are of the understanding that pitchers "fall" forward now, they don't "push" off the rubber.

@mvmac posted these videos in another topic, and I pointed out to you in a PM or the other topic how Sean Foley in that video was talking about the pelvis and falling left.

I'm still interested to see the swings with pressure plate data where you think you're doing this, but I've not seen it in hundreds of PGA Tour swings, nor would it really make much sense to me at this point. Nor have I seen the leg muscles doing much in muscle activation (electrodes to detect muscle activity and the like).

 

 

@iacas, the problem is it's difficult for people who are unfamiliar with the motion to see what's involved with just the naked eye.

i don't know what pitching mechanics are being taught today but i know pushing off of the ground with the inside of the trail foot is a legit way to generate tremendous arm speed. e.g. from a standstill (i.e. not a running start) behind home plate i could air mail a baseball over the left field fence of any standard size baseball park. pushing off of the ground made that possible.

[Phil McGleno]

17 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

there's a really easy way for you to feel what's being discussed here. spread your feet apart -- more than shoulder width -- and push into the ground with your right heel to shift your pressure to your left side using a similar motion to a sprinter coming off of the starting blocks. does this make sense or could i make this more clear?

if you do this right you'll notice you don't need to extend your right leg/knee to generate a good amount of force. i think this is what makes it difficult for people to understand what's happening with the naked eye alone.

I do not think you know what you are talking about.

[hoselpalooza]

Just now, iacas said:

I'm not using "the naked eye alone."

you are when you're looking at my swing and greinke's throwing motion.

1 minute ago, Phil McGleno said:

I do not think you know what you are talking about.

care to elaborate?

[iacas]

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

@iacas, the problem is it's difficult for people who are unfamiliar with the motion to see what's involved with just the naked eye.

Uhm, I'm not "unfamiliar with the motion" nor again am I using the naked eye. We were among the first dozen people to have bought a SwingCatalyst.

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

i don't know what pitching mechanics are being taught today but i know pushing off of the ground with the inside of the trail foot is a legit way to generate tremendous arm speed. e.g. from a standstill (i.e. not a running start) behind home plate i could air mail a baseball over the left field fence of any standard size baseball park. pushing off of the ground made that possible.

And PGA Tour players used to think the ball started in the direction of their swing and finished where the face was pointed at impact. Feel ain't real, and as we get better understandings of things, we advance our knowledge and are better able to teach what's actually happening.

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

you are when you're looking at my swing and greinke's throwing motion.

No, I'm able to use the hundreds of videos and hundreds of hours of GRF data to "see" things as they are actually happening.

I think you think your feels are more "real" than they are. And thus far all you've offered is… feels. Your video doesn't even really support what you're saying.

Six frames later Justin's foot is already banking up. Why? Because he's not pushing it downward (or away from the target… most of the shearing forces are behind him, as his hip is rotating toward the ball and forward at this point, which is why your foot kicks out backward, behind you, when it slips).

Don't push, fall.

[DaveP043]

27 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

there's a really easy way for you to feel what's being discussed here. spread your feet apart -- more than shoulder width -- and push into the ground with your right heel to shift your pressure to your left side using a similar motion to a sprinter coming off of the starting blocks. does this make sense or could i make this more clear?

if you do this right you'll notice you don't need to extend your right leg/knee to generate a good amount of force. i think this is what makes it difficult for people to understand what's happening with the naked eye alone.

Understand physics the way I do, a "push" by my right legs has to be resisted by something, most likely the inertia of my body mass.  My legs are supporting my body mass against gravity, a static situation.  If I push with my right leg, my body HAS to move, and if my body moves, my right knee has to extend.  If my right knee doesn't extend, if I don't cause any acceleration (meaning movement) in that body mass, I'm simply not pushing.  Again, you're talking about the feeling of pushing, but your description (push, but don't extend your leg) contradicts the notion that any push is going on.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Understand physics the way I do, a "push" by my right legs has to be resisted by something, most likely the inertia of my body mass.  My legs are supporting my body mass against gravity, a static situation.  If I push with my right leg, my body HAS to move, and if my body moves, my right knee has to extend.  If my right knee doesn't extend, if I don't cause any acceleration (meaning movement) in that body mass, I'm simply not pushing.  Again, you're talking about the feeling of pushing, but your description (push, but don't extend your leg) contradicts the notion that any push is going on.

👍🏼

[mvmac]

42 minutes ago, iacas said:

@mvmac posted these videos in another topic, and I pointed out to you in a PM or the other topic how Sean Foley in that video was talking about the pelvis and falling left.

@hoselpalooza you seem to be ignoring these videos and going by what you feel is happening.

You also mentioned power players pushing off the trail foot, here is Sadlowski, maybe the longest players in the world pound for pound and you can see he's clearly not pushing off in transition. The force vector is getting smaller and it's at its smallest where you think players "push off".

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, mvmac said:

@hoselpalooza you seem to be ignoring these videos and going by what you feel is happening.

You also mentioned power players pushing off the trail foot, here is Sadlowski, maybe the longest players in the world pound for pound and you can see he's clearly not pushing off in transition. The force vector is getting smaller and it's at its smallest where you think players "push off".

But @mvmac you're just using your naked eye… to look at the force vectors. 😉

[Pretzel]

3 hours ago, hoselpalooza said:

There seems to be some ignorance around here about "pushing off" with the trail foot. i.e. that it doesn't happen during transition or part of the downswing, which for many golfers, especially some powerful hitters, is 100% wrong. that's a separate discussion though.

Here's an example of your "powerful push" off that back foot in transition.

 

Your feel ain't real buddy, and you just can't seem to get that through your head.

Dustin Johnson has the same lack of a push off the back foot in transition, as seen clearly in this video. His heel is gently lifting off the ground from nearly the moment he starts down with the swing, not pressing down into it so he can push off.

 

[hoselpalooza]

@iacas, the videos/data you and @mvmac have shared are hardly conclusive for all golfers. 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

but I've not seen it in hundreds of PGA Tour swings

^ were you looking at force plate data for these hundreds of swings? because if you can't recognize a pitcher pushing off of the mound how could you expect to recognize it elsewhere?

as for pitchers not pushing off of the rubber, that's just nonsense. some people refer to it as "driving" off of the mound but it's the same thing. pushing occurs after initiating the forward fall. in the video you shared my guess is push off begins around 20s, when eversion of the trail foot becomes noticeable and the hands separate. at least that's when i would do it.

and according to an older post, it looks like i'm not the only person on this site who realizes this:

On 11/14/2011 at 3:18 AM, Deryck Griffith said:

I was a pitcher/center fielder and surprisingly, I realized that my pitching experience might be the biggest contributor to learning how to get my weight to the left in the golf swing.  Pushing off of the mound during a pitch really translated to pushing in a similar fashion with the inside of my right foot while I'm at the top of backswing just before the downswing starts.  Similar to pitching, the energy in your arms etc stays back until it's powered forward (in the case of the golf swing, the energy is exploded through impact).

 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

@iacas, the videos/data you and @mvmac have shared are hardly conclusive for all golfers.

I didn't say they were for all golfers, nor can I know what you're capable of concluding.

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

^ were you looking at force plate data for these hundreds of swings?

Yes. I've seen tens of thousands (or more) "PGA Tour swings". I thought it was a given that I was talking about their swings on force plates and that I was talking about having seen hundreds of PGA Tour player swings with the associated force plate data/visuals.

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

because if you can't recognize a pitcher pushing off of the mound how could you expect to recognize it elsewhere?

I don't believe pitchers push off the rubber very much. They, much like golfers, "fall" more than they "push."

That being said, this site isn't a baseball site, and I've not spent tens of thousands of hours studying pitching mechanics, so I'm not standing by what I say on that topic. I'm just pointing out that even others in baseball disagree with you about whether pitchers push off the rubber.

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

as for pitchers not pushing off of the rubber, that's just nonsense.

Experts don't seem to agree with you.

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

some people refer to it as "driving" off of the mound but it's the same thing.

Or "falling."

1 minute ago, hoselpalooza said:

and according to an older post, it looks like i'm not the only person on this site who realizes this:

That's @Deryck Griffith's feel.

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You've shown nothing here. No facts, no data, nada.

[hoselpalooza]

5 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

Here's an example of your "powerful push" off that back foot in transition.

Your feel ain't real buddy, and you just can't seem to get that through your head.

Dustin Johnson has the same lack of a push off the back foot in transition, as seen clearly in this video. His heel is gently lifting off the ground from nearly the moment he starts down with the swing, not pressing down into it so he can push off.

 

now you're just being rude and ignorant. using my first swing video after nearly a decade-long hiatus is not a good example, nor did i ever mention pushing off with my trail foot in that video. this seems like a bully tactic and i think it's inappropriate. 

[Pretzel]

2 minutes ago, hoselpalooza said:

now you're just being rude and ignorant. using my first swing video after nearly a decade-long hiatus is not a good example, nor did i ever mention pushing off with my trail foot in that video. this seems like a bully tactic and i think it's inappropriate. 

I'm simply showing you with your own swing, as well as swings of notorious power hitters, that a push off the back foot doesn't occur in the transition to the downswing.

You seem to feel like you do this in your own personal swing. That's why I'm using an example of your own personal swing to show you that what you're feeling in the swing is not what is happening in your swing.