Driving for Show, Putting for Dough, or Is It?

[klineka]

2 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

I spent a good deal of time on my Sim yesterday. 

What sim do you have/use? (Trackman, GC Quad, Mevo, Skytrak, etc)

Can you post pictures/screenshots of those results? (Preferably with a larger sample size than 10 shots per club, something like 20+ would be ideal)

 

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

I spent a good deal of time on my Sim yesterday.

This is getting off topic, so I'll keep this reply short, but… we're still just talking about a sim, not actual golf. Who knows how it's set up, how accurate it is, etc.?

9 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

Are the Tour pros stats an average?

Did you click the link?

9 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

Could further research show maybe this is the actual area that separates tour pros from rec and how that translates to lower scores? (along with consistency metrics?) 

We don't really need "further" research here. Average golfers hit all their clubs worse. The longer, the bigger the gap, but you're here claiming effectively (albeit on a simulator) to hit your 145-yard shots as good as or better than PGA Tour players.

I'm just saying it's unlikely.

But it's also on a sim, so you could easily be telling the truth based on the sim. That makes it likely that the sim isn't quite right.

[Darkfrog]

2 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

I spent a good deal of time on my Sim yesterday. 

I take lessons in a facility with simulator/launch monitor setups, and also do some practice in the same place. I've never played sim golf at the facility, so I am just talking about the GC quad driving range. My dispersion is much better in the launch monitor bay compared to on course, and I think there are probably a few reasons for this (speaking for my particular facility and it's setup).

It is almost impossible to aim/align poorly unless I make an effort to do so. The start line is right at the flag on the driving range green, and the hitting area is perfectly squared up to the screen

The lie is always perfectly flat.

The lie is always on perfect, high end artificial golf ball hitting turf.

There are no physical cues that a real course might provide that might influence alignment and path/face, like a lake down the right side of the hole, fairway pitch, imposing forced carry, or fairway/greenside bunkers. Yes, the might be on screen, but not sure if that has the same impact on our brains.

Just my $0.02.

 

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

The lie is always perfectly flat.

The lie is always on perfect, high end artificial golf ball hitting turf.

That too.

[ChetlovesMer]

34 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

I spent a good deal of time on my Sim yesterday. 

My first 7 9 irons were within 10 yards (some even within 1-3 yards) . I then hooked one like 18 yards left. 

Are the Tour pros stats an average?

Is there a consistency measurement that goes with their average? 

I would for sure fall Within 10 yards if it was average but my consistency would be far lower (which will obviously lead to blow up holes) 

The stats where it was really interesting was on their shots 200+ yds

 

Their accuracy doesn't really go down despite the longer lengths. 

I think that's where we (recreational golfers) suffer. 

Sometimes I hit my 3 hybrid 230

Sometimes I hit it 180 when I mis hit. 

Sometimes I go left or right 25+ yards. 

Could further research show maybe this is the actual area that separates tour pros from rec and how that translates to lower scores? (along with consistency metrics?) 

If they hit their 3 hybrid consistently within 15 yards left or right 230-240 yards, that gives them much more opportunities to go up and down and save par or even birdie. 

Thanks for your advice. I did read through game golf thread and saw that they resolved all the issues.

Which system is easier to use? 

I am actually looking into purchasing one. 

I will forsure forget to tap or press buttons before a shot. I think the new versions don't require that? 

I used Arccos for 3 years. I rarely did a thing. No tapping anything. I just played golf. Occasionally I'd look at my phone and make sure it was doing everything correctly. And it nearly always was. Once in a blue moon it would miss a shot, but for me that was really really rare. It was also really easy to correct. You can also tap the location of the flagstick to improve your putting data. But, I rarely did that. 

BTW - You really should read Lowest Score Wins. It will help your understanding. Pay close attention to the part about separation value. 

 

[StuM]

1 hour ago, badbeatj said:

I spent a good deal of time on my Sim yesterday. 

My first 7 9 irons were within 10 yards (some even within 1-3 yards) . I then hooked one like 18 yards left. 

Are the Tour pros stats an average?

Is there a consistency measurement that goes with their average? 

I would for sure fall Within 10 yards if it was average but my consistency would be far lower (which will obviously lead to blow up holes) 

The stats where it was really interesting was on their shots 200+ yds

 

Their accuracy doesn't really go down despite the longer lengths. 

I think that's where we (recreational golfers) suffer. 

Sometimes I hit my 3 hybrid 230

Sometimes I hit it 180 when I mis hit. 

Sometimes I go left or right 25+ yards. 

Could further research show maybe this is the actual area that separates tour pros from rec and how that translates to lower scores? (along with consistency metrics?) 

If they hit their 3 hybrid consistently within 15 yards left or right 230-240 yards, that gives them much more opportunities to go up and down and save par or even birdie. 

Thanks for your advice. I did read through game golf thread and saw that they resolved all the issues.

Which system is easier to use? 

I am actually looking into purchasing one. 

I will forsure forget to tap or press buttons before a shot. I think the new versions don't require that? 

Correct, the newer versions link via Bluetooth to your phone and do not require "Tagging".  For those I believe you need to keep your phone in your pocket.  I think when the Bluetooth versions first came out there were issues with missing shots and also with putting since not much of a swing.  Maybe someone with the newer version can weigh in with their experience.  As for forgetting to tap, it becomes habit over time and I have been using it since 2015 so the habit is ingrained into my pre-shot routine.

[Darkfrog]

I use Shotscope - it doesn't require any tapping, but does require that you wear a watch. The shot tracking feature is good. The performance analysis for Shotscope is not as good as Arccos and GameGolf (IMO), but they just added a rudimentary strokes gained vs. tour pro feature, so hopefully it gets better. If I could start over, I'd probably go with GameGolf or Arccos, but I'm going to give Shotscope a bit more time.

I second the LSW recommendation. 

[badbeatj]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Did you click the link?

We don't really need "further" research here. Average golfers hit all their clubs worse. The longer, the bigger the gap, but you're here claiming effectively (albeit on a simulator) to hit your 145-yard shots as good as or better than PGA Tour players.

I'm just saying it's unlikely.

But it's also on a sim, so you could easily be telling the truth based on the sim. That makes it likely that the sim isn't quite right.

Yes I clicked the link. It says averages. 

For many of the reasons listed here (perfect lie, perfect alignment  of hitting mat, perfect conditions, no wind, forgiving mat) I do think that an avid recreational golfer could hit within 10 yards of target from 145 yard out (on average) without the Sim being improperly calibrated. 

(I use a uneekor) 

You are correct though that Sim and real life is very different. 

I don't have enough time to play more than 15 rounds a year and we have a much shorter season where I live.

You are most likely right that when out in the real world, I'm outside of that 10 yard average due to all the various factors listed above) Only thing I can do is practice at home and try to dial it in as best as I can. 

Just as an aside, even the driving range on the Sim numbers is different than playing a course on a simulator due to undulating Greens, firmness of the Greens etc. 

Like Augusta for example is super difficult because if you hit the wrong part of the green, your ball rolls off so yes if we are talking on the course and sticking it within 10 yards, I am missing that. 

On the driving range though, I am within those numbers. 

 

 

57 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I used Arccos for 3 years. I rarely did a thing. No tapping anything. I just played golf. Occasionally I'd look at my phone and make sure it was doing everything correctly. And it nearly always was. Once in a blue moon it would miss a shot, but for me that was really really rare. It was also really easy to correct. You can also tap the location of the flagstick to improve your putting data. But, I rarely did that. 

BTW - You really should read Lowest Score Wins. It will help your understanding. Pay close attention to the part about separation value. 

 

Thank you

I think I'll pick up arccos. It's - 15 Celsius here and grounds are covered in snow. I'll pick it up in April when courses are getting ready to open. 

I saw that they released a product called link which just clips to your belt so no need for cell phones in your pocket anymore. 

I am looking for a copy of LSW but it's $45 USD including shipping which is like. $60+ Cad. I think that would be the most I would have spent on a book minus my old college textbooks lol but gotta support. 

Long time lurker here and really appreciate you guys! 

[ChetlovesMer]

5 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

Yes I clicked the link. It says averages. 

For many of the reasons listed here (perfect lie, perfect alignment  of hitting mat, perfect conditions, no wind, forgiving mat) I do think that an avid recreational golfer could hit within 10 yards of target from 145 yard out (on average) without the Sim being improperly calibrated. 

(I use a uneekor) 

You are correct though that Sim and real life is very different. 

I don't have enough time to play more than 15 rounds a year and we have a much shorter season where I live.

You are most likely right that when out in the real world, I'm outside of that 10 yard average due to all the various factors listed above) Only thing I can do is practice at home and try to dial it in as best as I can. 

Just as an aside, even the driving range on the Sim numbers is different than playing a course on a simulator due to undulating Greens, firmness of the Greens etc. 

Like Augusta for example is super difficult because if you hit the wrong part of the green, your ball rolls off so yes if we are talking on the course and sticking it within 10 yards, I am missing that. 

On the driving range though, I am within those numbers. 

 

 

Thank you

I think I'll pick up arccos. It's - 15 Celsius here and grounds are covered in snow. I'll pick it up in April when courses are getting ready to open. 

I saw that they released a product called link which just clips to your belt so no need for cell phones in your pocket anymore. 

I am looking for a copy of LSW but it's $45 USD including shipping which is like. $60+ Cad. I think that would be the most I would have spent on a book minus my old college textbooks lol but gotta support. 

Long time lurker here and really appreciate you guys! 

You may be able to find somebody on this forum who'd lend you a copy of Lowest Score Wins. I'd lend you mine, but mine's been signed by the author and I'd hate to lose it. 

Good luck. 

BTW - I think you'll like Arccos. I did. The one thing is I stopped paying for their Arccos Caddie feature. I felt it didn't do that much. I was more interested in the shot tracking and the data it provided. Again, Good luck to you.

[badbeatj]

2 hours ago, klineka said:

What sim do you have/use? (Trackman, GC Quad, Mevo, Skytrak, etc)

Can you post pictures/screenshots of those results? (Preferably with a larger sample size than 10 shots per club, something like 20+ would be ideal)

 

I have a uneekor

I will post the results by end of week. 

I've been practicing too much lately lol. My body is sore so I should take a break today and tomorrow. (well maybe I'll get back to it tomorrow) 

[woodzie264]

13 minutes ago, badbeatj said:

I am looking for a copy of LSW but it's $45 USD including shipping which is like. $60+ Cad. I think that would be the most I would have spent on a book minus my old college textbooks lol but gotta support. 

Long time lurker here and really appreciate you guys! 

PM me your address - I’ll send you one of my unsigned editions...I’ve been told I can’t lend out the signed one 

@badbeatj, when you realize it’s totally worth it, buy two for yourself and pass them on 😉 

[badbeatj]

28 minutes ago, woodzie264 said:

PM me your address - I’ll send you one of my unsigned editions...I’ve been told I can’t lend out the signed one 

@badbeatj, when you realize it’s totally worth it, buy two for yourself and pass them on 😉 

Thank you so much! Will do! 

[badbeatj]

On 03/02/2021 at 12:33 PM, klineka said:

What sim do you have/use? (Trackman, GC Quad, Mevo, Skytrak, etc)

Can you post pictures/screenshots of those results? (Preferably with a larger sample size than 10 shots per club, something like 20+ would be ideal)

 

Ok finally had some time today

Here are 2 separate groups of 20 shots and a group of 10 (spreadsheet attached) 

My misses are generally short (125-130 yards) which happened twice I think on the 2 sets of 20.

 

 

 

Data_0205141551.csv Data_0205134541.csv

So in terms of average of 50 shots I'm well within the 10 yards but in terms of consistency, I'm probably more like 80 %

[badbeatj]

On 2/5/2021 at 2:21 PM, badbeatj said:

Ok finally had some time today

Here are 2 separate groups of 20 shots and a group of 10 (spreadsheet attached) 

My misses are generally short (125-130 yards) which happened twice I think on the 2 sets of 20.

 

 

 

Data_0205141551.csv 2.75 kB · 3 downloads Data_0205134541.csv 2.75 kB · 1 download

So in terms of average of 50 shots I'm well within the 10 yards but in terms of consistency, I'm probably more like 80 %

@iacas@klineka After hitting a bunch of 9 irons, what I realized is, consistency is really hard. To keep the mental focus hit after hit is exhausting and any difference in a swing due to a mental lapse has a disastrous outcome. Stringing about 10 in a row is the limit for my level of focus before mind starts to wander... 

I also looked at my spreadsheet and changed all the negative integers to positive as that is more accurate as left or right side miss shouldn't even each other out. I'm still within the 10 yard average. 

Are these numbers what you would expect from a mid 80s player? 

 

[Esox]

On 6/25/2019 at 9:19 AM, iacas said:

• Approach Shots (39%)
• Driving (28%)
• Short Game (19%)
• Putting (14%)

Putting matters the least, over the long term.

Interesting breakdown. Until I have one of those days where  if I happen to find a fairway it's the wrong one, and my approach shot is not going to hit the green in regulation.........

[klineka]

7 hours ago, badbeatj said:

@iacas@klineka After hitting a bunch of 9 irons, what I realized is, consistency is really hard. To keep the mental focus hit after hit is exhausting and any difference in a swing due to a mental lapse has a disastrous outcome. Stringing about 10 in a row is the limit for my level of focus before mind starts to wander... 

It's more likely a physical thing with your swing that is causing the inconsistency than it is a mental thing. Dustin Johnson or any PGA tour player with their worst possible mental focus would still shoot better than me and you simply because they're so much more skilled than we are. Good chances are your mental game isnt affecting your results as much as you think.

 

7 hours ago, badbeatj said:

I also looked at my spreadsheet and changed all the negative integers to positive as that is more accurate as left or right side miss shouldn't even each other out. I'm still within the 10 yard average. 

There are two kinds of dispersion to consider, a lateral dispersion (left/right of target) and distance dispersion, your left/right dispersion looks pretty good, but the carry distances aren't that consistent. There were some that carried as low as 116 and some that carried as far as 146. That's a huge variance for one club especially off of a perfect lie, indoors, etc. I get that some of those might be outliers, but there still seemed to be a pretty big variance in carry distance, even when excluding the outliers. 

7 hours ago, badbeatj said:

Are these numbers what you would expect from a mid 80s player? 

I'm not a coach so to be completely honest I'm not sure if those are good numbers or not for a mid 80s player.

7 hours ago, Esox said:

Interesting breakdown. Until I have one of those days where  if I happen to find a fairway it's the wrong one, and my approach shot is not going to hit the green in regulation.........

That's why @iacas said "over the long term"... One round isnt a large enough sample size. 

[badbeatj]

3 hours ago, klineka said:

It's more likely a physical thing with your swing that is causing the inconsistency than it is a mental thing. Dustin Johnson or any PGA tour player with their worst possible mental focus would still shoot better than me and you simply because they're so much more skilled than we are. Good chances are your mental game isnt affecting your results as much as you think.

 

There are two kinds of dispersion to consider, a lateral dispersion (left/right of target) and distance dispersion, your left/right dispersion looks pretty good, but the carry distances aren't that consistent. There were some that carried as low as 116 and some that carried as far as 146. That's a huge variance for one club especially off of a perfect lie, indoors, etc. I get that some of those might be outliers, but there still seemed to be a pretty big variance in carry distance, even when excluding the outliers. 

I'm not a coach so to be completely honest I'm not sure if those are good numbers or not for a mid 80s player.

That's why @iacas said "over the long term"... One round isnt a large enough sample size. 

Thanks for your comments. I Definitely am working on a more repeatable swing. Golf is a really tough sport lol and even the slightest change results in a push or pull. 

I've read comments / articles such as 

Play The Shot You Have That Day

---

Every day when we get to the course, our body feels a little bit different. Maybe you got in a...

Is this rubbish? If you have a fine tuned swing, should your shot be changing at all on a given day? 

Your absolutely right about the distance dispersion. My mishits are more to do with missing the sweet spot and hitting toe of the club and losing distance. I do that about 3 times out of 20.

I feel like I need to fix this

 

 

[iacas]

This is getting pretty far off topic.