Question About Club Face At A2/P2

[Caligolfer2103]

Hi, first time poster as my kids and I are new to the sport.  We're taking lessons and getting conflicting advice, so wanted to get the forum's thoughts...

One area I hear about is the club face angle when the club is parallel to the ground on the backswing.  From what I understand, the  traditional way is to have that club face between vertical (pointing to the sky) and your spine angle (club face is pointing in same direction as your spine if you draw a straight line from butt to head).  I have two questions on this:

1) one instructor pushed my son to have a fully closed club face at that parallel position.  in other words, the club face is also parallel to the ground.  He says that encourages a better impact position, and says a number of pro players also have that closed face.  But everyone I've spoken to about this says that is crazy talk, so curious what others think...

2) i've found that if I have a fully open face, i.e. club face vertical, it creates an issue where I am more likely to hosel rocket the ball.  but if i go with a club face more in-line with my spine angle, i'm able to hit pretty straight.  for anyone who has experienced that, i'd love to better understand the science behind that.

Thanks in advance and love the forum!

 

[Vinsk]

7 hours ago, Caligolfer2103 said:

Hi, first time poster as my kids and I are new to the sport.  We're taking lessons and getting conflicting advice, so wanted to get the forum's thoughts...

One area I hear about is the club face angle when the club is parallel to the ground on the backswing.  From what I understand, the  traditional way is to have that club face between vertical (pointing to the sky) and your spine angle (club face is pointing in same direction as your spine if you draw a straight line from butt to head).  I have two questions on this:

1) one instructor pushed my son to have a fully closed club face at that parallel position.  in other words, the club face is also parallel to the ground.  He says that encourages a better impact position, and says a number of pro players also have that closed face.  But everyone I've spoken to about this says that is crazy talk, so curious what others think...

2) i've found that if I have a fully open face, i.e. club face vertical, it creates an issue where I am more likely to hosel rocket the ball.  but if i go with a club face more in-line with my spine angle, i'm able to hit pretty straight.  for anyone who has experienced that, i'd love to better understand the science behind that.

Thanks in advance and love the forum!

 

Hello and welcome to TST and to golf. I’m not an instructor but many are here and will answer your question soon. That being said I must say I’m not thrilled that your instructor is even discussing your club face at the top of the swing being new to the game and all. That’s just not something that needs to be addressed, at least not directly.

What did your instructor say regarding your and your kids’ grip? You’ll find there are very few things that are considered ‘traditional’ when it comes to the golf swing. Something for certain is there are five keys that every good golfer achieves in his/her golf swing. Take a look and ask plenty more questions. This place is an excellent and trustworthy site for golf advice. Cheers!

 

 

[boogielicious]

6 hours ago, Caligolfer2103 said:

Hi, first time poster as my kids and I are new to the sport.  We're taking lessons and getting conflicting advice, so wanted to get the forum's thoughts...

One area I hear about is the club face angle when the club is parallel to the ground on the backswing.  From what I understand, the  traditional way is to have that club face between vertical (pointing to the sky) and your spine angle (club face is pointing in same direction as your spine if you draw a straight line from butt to head).  I have two questions on this:

1) one instructor pushed my son to have a fully closed club face at that parallel position.  in other words, the club face is also parallel to the ground.  He says that encourages a better impact position, and says a number of pro players also have that closed face.  But everyone I've spoken to about this says that is crazy talk, so curious what others think...

2) i've found that if I have a fully open face, i.e. club face vertical, it creates an issue where I am more likely to hosel rocket the ball.  but if i go with a club face more in-line with my spine angle, i'm able to hit pretty straight.  for anyone who has experienced that, i'd love to better understand the science behind that.

Thanks in advance and love the forum!

 

Welcome to The Sand Trap. Just to make sure we are talking the same thing, I think you are describing the position A2 or P2 as it is called by some. The thread below lists all the golf terminology.

The answer is, it’s complicated. The face position at A2 can vary even amongst great players. This is controlled by your wrists by cupping or bowing them. But I think what the instructor is saying is don’t cup your wrist during the early part of the takeaway. Take the club back without wrist movement. If you take it back on plane, it will point toward the ground at A2 and look closed. This helps keep the wrists in the right position for the top of the backswing.

Below is my swing. You can see at A2, the face is pointing down and appears closed there. This is how my instructor wants it. If you stop it there, you will see the head pass my hands a little in front, which is slightly above plane.

 

[Nail]

Maybe your instructor is teaching a feel. Your son might be opening the club on the way back and he wants him to feel like it’s pointing down when in reality it’ll probably match his spine angle. 

“Feel ain’t real” 

[ncates00]

3 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Welcome to The Sand Trap. Just to make sure we are talking the same thing, I think you are describing the position A2 or P2 as it is called by some. The thread below lists all the golf terminology.

The answer is, it’s complicated. The face position at A2 can vary even amongst great players. This is controlled by your wrists by cupping or bowing them. But I think what the instructor is saying is don’t cup your wrist during the early part of the takeaway. Take the club back without wrist movement. If you take it back on plane, it will point toward the ground at A2 and look closed. This helps keep the wrists in the right position for the top of the backswing.

Below is my swing. You can see at A2, the face is pointing down and appears closed there. This is how my instructor wants it. If you stop it there, you will see the head pass my hands a little in front, which is slightly above plane.

 

Off topic, but that’s a pretty good looking motion there! 

[Caligolfer2103]

vinsk, i wasn't entirely fair in my original post.  my sons are new to the game in that they've only been playing a year, but they've put in a ton of work and so pretty far along.  i checked out the 5 point video and they've got that stuff down.  for the most part, their swings are looking good and they just continue to build.

boogielicious, that's super helpful and exactly the position i'm talking about (p2).  so with my older son, the instructor has been making that face entirely closed, whereas yours is angled with your spine.  the problem my son then has is the club face stays closed throughout and voila, the ball hooks left.  as soon as he thinks about opening up a bit, i.e. getting to a position more similar to yours, it works.

all in all, i know which way i'm going to encourage him to swing, but i was more interetsed in the rational for a fully closed club face from a theoretical perspective.  just seemed really odd to me and couldn't figure out what it was trying to achieve.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, Caligolfer2103 said:

vinsk, i wasn't entirely fair in my original post.  my sons are new to the game in that they've only been playing a year, but they've put in a ton of work and so pretty far along.  i checked out the 5 point video and they've got that stuff down.  for the most part, their swings are looking good and they just continue to build.

boogielicious, that's super helpful and exactly the position i'm talking about (p2).  so with my older son, the instructor has been making that face entirely closed, whereas yours is angled with your spine.  the problem my son then has is the club face stays closed throughout and voila, the ball hooks left.  as soon as he thinks about opening up a bit, i.e. getting to a position more similar to yours, it works.

all in all, i know which way i'm going to encourage him to swing, but i was more interetsed in the rational for a fully closed club face from a theoretical perspective.  just seemed really odd to me and couldn't figure out what it was trying to achieve.

Ok sounds good. But I will say I’m not a big fan of changing something that isn’t broke just because it’s ‘traditional’ or ‘what the pros do’ unless it’s a poisonous compensation that can lead to poorer ball striking.

[ncates00]

2 hours ago, Caligolfer2103 said:

vinsk, i wasn't entirely fair in my original post.  my sons are new to the game in that they've only been playing a year, but they've put in a ton of work and so pretty far along.  i checked out the 5 point video and they've got that stuff down.  for the most part, their swings are looking good and they just continue to build.

boogielicious, that's super helpful and exactly the position i'm talking about (p2).  so with my older son, the instructor has been making that face entirely closed, whereas yours is angled with your spine.  the problem my son then has is the club face stays closed throughout and voila, the ball hooks left.  as soon as he thinks about opening up a bit, i.e. getting to a position more similar to yours, it works.

all in all, i know which way i'm going to encourage him to swing, but i was more interetsed in the rational for a fully closed club face from a theoretical perspective.  just seemed really odd to me and couldn't figure out what it was trying to achieve.

Function over form.  The golf swing isn't made up of positions; it's a motion.  My motion is terrible, but it works because I know my tendencies. 

Anecdotal rant: I know I get an inside flat takeaway, across the line, and come down a bit steeper, so I have to lose posture and shallow it on the way down.  It's a crazy motion, but I don't even feel myself do it; it's natural to me.  I plan on updating my swing thread and posting my thoughts.  I wouldn't want anyone to swing the way I do as it is a mess. 

You should only change things that are detrimental to your game and the change will lead to better results.  

[Caligolfer2103]

Thanks everyone.  Confirming a lot of my intuition!