Partner in Fourball Stands Behind Partner During Putt

[Club Rat]

With the new rules effective this year, was there a change in allowing a partner in a Two Man Match Play which allows the partner to stand behind his partner during the time the player is putting?
Also, is standing behind his partner in close proximity a breech of the rules?

The two partners had a long putt from an identical position. They looked over there putts and discussed the situation. (Line of putt, break etc.) 
Then the one partner addressed the ball on the putting green and his partner was directly behind him at that moment. (about 7 feet to observe the line of the putt)
He quickly realizes his partner was about to putt and steps to the side one stride and observes the putt, then steps back in behind the line of his partner to observe the line of the putt.

Also how is close proximity determined or measured in distance?

[iacas]

Wasn’t legal before 2019, still not legal now.

Assuming by “behind” you mean on the extension of their line.

[Club Rat]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

Assuming by “behind” you mean on the extension of their line.

Yes Erik, I thought the rule was 14-2b, but I'm not able to locate the ruling.

20 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Also, is standing behind his partner in close proximity a breech of the rules?

Also meaning on the extension of their line.

20 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Also how is close proximity determined or measured in distance?

Is one step to the side consider to be close proximity, while a couple of steps, 2-3 steps considered away from the line enough?
The guy took one stride away and then stepped back to observe.

[iacas]

[Rulesman]

5 hours ago, Club Rat said:

Yes Erik, I thought the rule was 14-2b, but I'm not able to locate the ruling.

 

I'm afraid you are about 10 months off the pace. 😲

 

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Rulesman

[Club Rat]

I'm still puzzled about the ruling in regards to who is penalized?

Would it be the player standing behind his partner or the player making the putt.
It seems to me it would be a loss of hole by the partners in general?

[iacas]

What's the form of play? Fourball?

Did you look at 23.8?

[Club Rat]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

Did you look at 23.8?

Yes I have read this ruling, but it does not directly address my question.
Is a general penalty when a partner stands behind his partner while he takes his stance and or putts.
In which case, it would be a loss of hole?

The second issue was the partner moved to a close proximity away after the player address the ball to make the putting stroke.

And this occurred in a four ball partner match.

Quote

23.8  When Penalty Applies to One Partner Only or Applies to Both Partners

a. Penalties Other Than Disqualification

When you get a penalty other than disqualification, that penalty normally applies only to you and not also to your partner
Partner: A player who competes together with another player as a side, in either match play or stroke play..

In match play Match Play: A form of play where you or your side plays directly against an opponent or opposing side in a head-to-head match of one or more rounds., if you get the general penalty
General Penalty: Loss of hole in match play or two penalty strokes in stroke play. (loss of hole), you have no score that can count for your side
Side: Two or more partners competing as a single unit in a round in match play or stroke play. on that hole; but this penalty has no effect on your partner
Partner: A player who competes together with another player as a side, in either match play or stroke play.,
who may continue to play for your side
Side: Two or more partners competing as a single unit in a round in match play or stroke play. on that hole.

There are three situations where your penalty also applies to your partner
Partner: A player who competes together with another player as a side, in either match play or stroke play.:

(1) When you breach Rule 4.1b (Limit of 14 Clubs; Shared, Added or Replaced Clubs).

(2) When your breach helps your partner’s Partner: A player who competes together with another player as a side, in either match play or stroke play. play.

(3) In match play Match Play: A form of play where you or your side plays directly against an opponent or opposing side in a head-to-head match of one or more rounds., when your breach hurts your opponent’s
Opponent: The person you compete against in a match. The term opponent applies only in match play.

Exception – If You Make a Stroke at Wrong Ball, it is Not Treated as Having Helped Your Partner ‘s Play or Hurt Your Opponent’s Play.

 

 

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, Club Rat said:

Yes I have read this ruling, but it does not directly address my question.
Is a general penalty when a partner stands behind his partner while he takes his stance and or putts.
In which case, it would be a loss of hole?

The second issue was the partner moved to a close proximity away after the player address the ball to make the putting stroke.

And this occurred in a four ball partner match.

 

 

I don’t get it...you posted the rule. How does this not answer your question?

[Club Rat]

9 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I don’t get it...you posted the rule. How does this not answer your question?

Because I do not fully understand the ruling and want to be certain of how the penalty is applied and to whom.
In certain situations in 4 ball only one player would be penalize and be out if the hole.
Also because I've never come across a situation of a "General Penalty" before,

[Rulesman]

General Penalty - Loss of hole in match play or two penalty strokes in stroke play.

Do you think any of the exceptions in 23.8a(2) apply?

Edited October 19, 2019 by Rulesman

[Club Rat]

7 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Do you think any of the exceptions in 23.8a(2) apply?

Yes that is exactly what occurred and thank you very much for the clarification.

Quote

Player B takes a stance for a putt and makes the stroke while Player A deliberately stands in a location on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason. Player B is in breach of Rule 10.2b(4) (Standing Behind Player) for taking a stance when Player A is in such a location and will get the general penalty

 

 

[iacas]

55 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Yes that is exactly what occurred and thank you very much for the clarification.

Did you read far enough? Both players get the general penalty:

• Player B takes a stance for a putt and makes the stroke while Player A deliberately stands in a location on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason. Player B is in breach of Rule 10.2b(4) (Standing Behind Player) for taking a stance when Player A is in such a location and will get the general penalty.

  Further, when Player A’s putt is on the same line as Player B’s and Player B makes a stroke while Player A is on an extension of Player B’s line of play, Player B’s breach helped Player A so Player A also gets the same penalty as Player B.

[Club Rat]

I now understand the term "General Penalty" and how it is used for a few situations.
Until I inquired in this thread, I honestly have ever had anyone speak in the manner of a general penalty.
Learn something new today, thanks Erik and @Rulesman

[Rulesman]

Note that you have to look further than the Rule. Erik's text is in fact

Interpretation 23.8a(2)/1 – Examples of When Player’s Breach Helps Partner’s Play

 

[fredf]

On 10/18/2019 at 12:57 PM, Club Rat said:

 

Also meaning on the extension of their line.

Is one step to the side consider to be close proximity, while a couple of steps, 2-3 steps considered away from the line enough?
The guy took one stride away and then stepped back to observe.

This is a good question that I am not aware of any official answer to.  IMO, your suggestion above is a good one that I would support (in the absence of further clarification) in the case of a longer putt - one step to the side could still be 'close proximity' but a couple of steps would not.  Distance of ball from hole does seem to come into it.  For example, if the putt is only a yard and a half then a full step to the side would not seem to be close proximity but a putt of say 5 yards and one step may not be enough to escape the 10.2b(4) restriction if the 'observer' is not in the process of moving away.  I'd be interested in others thoughts on this angle.  

[Club Rat]

1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

Interpretation 23.8a(2)/1 – Examples of When Player’s Breach Helps Partner’s Play

I did and that scenario did occur as I mentioned above.

On 10/17/2019 at 8:57 PM, Club Rat said:

The guy took one stride away and then stepped back to observe.

He actually already had breached the rule standing behind his partner when he address the putt, then quickly stepped
away when he noticed I was watching him.

The sad part, he stood behind his partner on the second hole of the match and I told him he could not do that,
But, I failed to tell the dumb ass it was a penalty at the time, My bad.
I should have called them out at that time, but wasn't sure who would receive the penalty.
I also should have called the head pro to let him tell the rule at the time.

Our poor decision cost us the championship.

For all I know, the dumb ass might have been checking his partners alignment.
This might had been the situation, but that's hard to call them out on.

[RonK]

Can I please add to the discussion. In a 4BBB

If Player A has 5 ft birdie putt (so pretty certain to make par). and Player B has a 6 ft putt for par 9o degrees from Player As ball. 

Can Player B putt his ball to just behind Player As mark and not  at the hole so that his next putt will show Player A the line for his birdie attempt.

thanks.