Is This Legal - Marking Ball with Toe of Putter?

[Asheville]

From RoG 2019 Definitions:

Mark

To show the spot where a ball is at rest by either:

• Placing a ball-markerBall-Marker: An artificial object when used to mark the spot of a ball to be lifted, such as a tee, a coin, an object made to be a ball-marker or another small piece of equipment.(...Continued) right behind or right next to the ball, or

• Holding a club on the ground right behind or right next to the ball.

This is done to show the spot where the ball must be replaced after it is lifted.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Zeph said:

There's no penalty for accidentally moving the marker as long as it is replaced. I don't see why a moved marker is easier to replace than a club.

That is true under the 2019 Rules.  Prior to that, however, if a player accidentally moved the ball marker, and wasn't in the process of marking and lifting or replacing the ball, he was penalized.  This is old Rule 20-1, and clarified in Decision 20-1/5.5.  The risk of having the putter move or fall while the ball was lifted would be enough reason for serious players to avoid doing that.

I just searched and found the old Decisions here: https://golfcanada.ca/app/uploads/2015/03/DOTRO16-FINAL-Golf-Canada.pdf

[ChetlovesMer]

14 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

That is true under the 2019 Rules.  Prior to that, however, if a player accidentally moved the ball marker, and wasn't in the process of marking and lifting or replacing the ball, he was penalized.  This is old Rule 20-1, and clarified in Decision 20-1/5.5.  The risk of having the putter move or fall while the ball was lifted would be enough reason for serious players to avoid doing that.

I just searched and found the old Decisions here: https://golfcanada.ca/app/uploads/2015/03/DOTRO16-FINAL-Golf-Canada.pdf

Dave, did you just send out a 744 page document without mentioning what page you were referencing? Are you expecting me to READ? 

[iacas]

27 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Decision 20-1/5.5

I believe that's the part you should read.

[ChetlovesMer]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

I believe that's the part you should read.

Yeah, I read it. But it was a whole lot of scrolling there. A page number would have made it a lot easier.... just saying. 

[DaveP043]

23 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Dave, did you just send out a 744 page document without mentioning what page you were referencing? Are you expecting me to READ? 

As @iacas mentioned, I did send you to the correct decision, and they do run in numeric order.  But if you scan through, you might learn something that you didn't intend to learn, and that's never a bad thing.  Of course, the thing you might learn isn't in effect any more, but still....

When I went through, I realized once again how many different things could happen to a ball, or a ballmarker, on the putting green, and how they were handled differently.  We may not approve of the idea that a player can be a bit careless, accidentally move a ball or marker without penalty, but it definitely is less complicated under the 2019 Rules.

To be honest, I always try to give a link to my source.  We see enough misinformation about rules (see earlier in this thread re the PGA Tour) that I'm happy to have my facts checked by others.

[Rulesman]

3 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Yeah, I read it. But it was a whole lot of scrolling there. A page number would have made it a lot easier.... just saying. 

As it is a pdf why didn't you do a pdf search for '20-1/5.5'  ?

[ChetlovesMer]

5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

As @iacas mentioned, I did send you to the correct decision, and they do run in numeric order.  But if you scan through, you might learn something that you didn't intend to learn, and that's never a bad thing.  Of course, the thing you might learn isn't in effect any more, but still....

When I went through, I realized once again how many different things could happen to a ball, or a ballmarker, on the putting green, and how they were handled differently.  We may not approve of the idea that a player can be a bit careless, accidentally move a ball or marker without penalty, but it definitely is less complicated under the 2019 Rules.

To be honest, I always try to give a link to my source.  We see enough misinformation about rules (see earlier in this thread re the PGA Tour) that I'm happy to have my facts checked by others.

You know I'm just giving you crap, right? 

Of course I can READ, I went to Chicago Public Schools. …..

[DaveP043]

19 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

You know I'm just giving you crap, right? 

Of course I can READ, I went to Chicago Public Schools. …..

You giveth, and I returneth 

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I just searched and found the old Decisions here: https://golfcanada.ca/app/uploads/2015/03/DOTRO16-FINAL-Golf-Canada.pdf

Very useful. I have still got the hardcopy but sometimes a pdf is more useful for the occasional back track 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Yeah, I read it. But it was a whole lot of scrolling there. A page number would have made it a lot easier.... just saying. 

cmd-f dude.

And I still have the 2018 Rules of Golf app on my phone. I wonder when that'll stop working…

[djake]

On 10/23/2019 at 10:28 PM, Missouri Swede said:

It would speed things up if you’d livestream your golf rounds. You know, get call-ins about rules violations. 

LOL 😆 Hard laughing at this. between all of rule violations and swing advice being tossed at me if I did this I wouldn't make past the 1st hole.

[fredf]

8 hours ago, Zeph said:

There's no penalty for accidentally moving the marker as long as it is replaced. I don't see why a moved marker is easier to replace than a club.

Keep in mind, this statement is only true for a ball on the putting green. If clubhead is used to mark the ball not on the green and someone shouts "fore" and you look up, breaking contact between clubhead marking the ball and the ground, then you are done one shot penalty under R9.7b.

[denkea]

On 10/26/2019 at 4:04 PM, Asheville said:

Don't make things up. Unless you can prove it . . . it's rubbish.

Check the link below.  Not rubbish

 

A "hungover" David Feherty once got one of the oddest penalties in PGA Tour history - Golf Digest

---

On the eve of the Waste Management Phoenix Open, David Feherty told the story of how he once got penalized for using a hotel room key as a...

 

 

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, denkea said:

Check the link below.  Not rubbish

Your original quote was present tense: "That IS a PGA Tour rule." Something that may not have even happened decades ago.

Again: "That is a PGA tour rule.  You can't use the toe of your putter during PGA tour events. But with USGA events you can."

You've not proven anything.

[Rulesman]

I believe the PGA Tour no longer has their own rule re ball markers. They accepted that they should not modify a rule of golf.

[fredf]

Er, Feherty's reference to an elephant turd now being a permitted ball marker is not true under the current rules - a ball marker is an 'artificial object'. I hope he is not carrying one around in his bag.