My Swing (Lugowskins)

[iacas]

I'm not sure I understand. The videos show really long backswings that lack width and are swung very, very fast.

I'm assuming you didn't record (at least to show us) the "slow motion" swings you say you made, but you almost need to do that exclusively.

"If you can't do it slow, don't do it fast" and "The best drill is doing it right."

The swings in that video aren't right. They're not exaggerated, they're only barely or marginally better.

Then, many months later…

 

I don't see anything like a big enough change here:

Your grip still opens up. The shaft still gets right by your right shoulder, etc.

P.S. Those June/July videos were just before I went to Sand Valley.

[billchao]

  On 1/26/2022 at 4:35 AM, Lugowskins said:

2 days for me when I'm working on something is 5-6 hours of practice so yeah that should be enough time to see something close to progress.

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It takes time to change motor function and it’s not about how much time you spend per session. You can’t make up for it by simply practicing longer per session.

If anything, doing that inhibits your ability to make changes because you’re just further ingraining your existing pattern and making up for compensations through better hand eye coordination due to repetition. That’s why when you try to do something differently it doesn’t feel right and the results aren’t as good as what you’re used to.

[Lugowskins]

  On 1/27/2022 at 1:41 AM, iacas said:

I'm not sure I understand. The videos show really long backswings that lack width and are swung very, very fast.

I'm assuming you didn't record (at least to show us) the "slow motion" swings you say you made, but you almost need to do that exclusively.

"If you can't do it slow, don't do it fast" and "The best drill is doing it right."

The swings in that video aren't right. They're not exaggerated, they're only barely or marginally better.

Then, many months later…

 

I don't see anything like a big enough change here:

Your grip still opens up. The shaft still gets right by your right shoulder, etc.

P.S. Those June/July videos were just before I went to Sand Valley.

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I just did some looking around and watching these swings from Hogan and Mickelson I see a lot of what you're talking about as far as not a lot of width and the club almost hitting their shoulder.

 

Obviously me losing the grip at the top is gross and will be fixed just help me see why once I do that the swing couldn't be a successful one? Instead of trying to mirror what you have your student doing, high hands and looks like an over 90 degree shaft angle, what I notice in their swings is that their lead arm is across their body close to level with their back shoulder which is what I have been trying to do as it helps me from coming over the top and has simplified my delivery. I could get my hands more vertical and try to look like Cam Champ at the top that would get the shaft away from my shoulder and maybe gain some speed but that just adds more moving pieces and things to time up trying to drop it back into the slot. I'm already easily in the mid 170s for ball speed and ball striking is miles ahead of where I was just a few months ago I just think I need convincing that forcing myself to go from 

this  to that

is what's going to get me to where I want to be.  

 

[iacas]

Is golf your job?

[Lugowskins]

  On 1/27/2022 at 12:05 PM, iacas said:

Is golf your job?

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Lol ok man that explanation definitely swayed me. 

[iacas]

  On 1/27/2022 at 6:12 AM, Lugowskins said:

I just did some looking around and watching these swings from Hogan and Mickelson I see a lot of what you're talking about as far as not a lot of width and the club almost hitting their shoulder.

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I have more time now, so what I meant by "Is golf your job?" is just that: do you have six hours a day to just do golf? Because Phil and Ben did. And despite it being their jobs, very few modern PGA Tour players swing like a dead guy or a 51-year-old. Phil (and obviously Ben) grew up and came into golf when swings were longer. Look back to Bobby Jones and swings were really long, having come off hickory that required timing. They say things in golf are cyclical, but not this: swings consistently get shorter and shorter.

Phil and Ben, also, get their arms down. You do not.

And it wasn't an attempt to convince you, it was an attempt to get you to think critically.

Your right elbow gets trapped behind you and your left arm stays loaded well across your chest, so your lower body has to stall to give your upper body time to get the clubhead to the ball.

This is a much more common look:

World #1 and one of the longest hitters out there.

Two dominant players, including the GOAT.

One of the most liked swings and Cameron Champ, who gets his hands high, doesn't over-hinge his wrists, and who maintains a WIDE angle in both his right elbow and in keeping his lead arm off his chest.

I have Rory's numbers (and Rahm's, and Finau's, and about 20 other guys), and they're all similar. Rory gets over 120° shoulder turn. His trail elbow doesn't bend past 70° (i.e. measure the angle and it's over 110°, as he bends it less than 70°), and he starts at about 81° lead arm adduction and goes to only 63° at the top. He's almost at 90° at impact. His forearm to shaft angle ("lag" angle) stays above 90° as well.

  On 1/27/2022 at 6:12 AM, Lugowskins said:

Obviously me losing the grip at the top is gross and will be fixed just help me see why once I do that the swing couldn't be a successful one?

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I don't know what your version of "successful" is. If you're happy to be a 3, maybe just not letting go of the club at the top would get you there. If you want to be a +2, though, I'd say good luck with that swing.

• Because you're not as capable, it seems, of getting your arms down as well as the other guys. It's always going to be a struggle to time it. The "lag" (your wrist angles) come out early.
• Golf isn't your job. Meaning you're not going to have six hours a day to do this almost entirely year-round to get your timing down.

Tiger aims 3-4° right and has to time "releasing the toe" of the putter to square up his putter. When he's able to putt a lot, he can do it. You wouldn't tell an amateur to do something like that, though.

Here's what it boils down to, and why your examples fall flat: You can find a PGA Tour player who does anything. They're exceptionally talented and they have the time to work on grooving the unique parts of their games because their livelihood depends on it. You, on the other hand, should find the simplest repeatable thing, not seek out the quirky ones that require a bunch of maintenance.

If you can't do the second bullet point above, you don't have the time to groove it because you don't do the second thing (have the time), either.

People like Louis Oosthuizen's swing, right?

I teach people out of that motion all the time because for the amateur golfer, it causes all sorts of problems with shanks, with fat/thin shots, etc. People "like" his swing because his rhythm is good, and he hits it pretty well (except when he's hitting it into the pond in a playoff), but that's a HELLUVA lot of early extension/goat humping. Thing is, it's his job, so he has time to "groove" that swing.

  On 1/27/2022 at 6:12 AM, Lugowskins said:

Instead of trying to mirror what you have your student doing, high hands and looks like an over 90 degree shaft angle

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That's their feel. They're doing this slowly. You aren't - you're going fast and, consequently, not really changing much.

You didn't even hold onto the club, and that seems to be something that you agree you want to fix.

  On 1/27/2022 at 6:12 AM, Lugowskins said:

what I notice in their swings is that their lead arm is across their body close to level with their back shoulder which is what I have been trying to do as it helps me from coming over the top and has simplified my delivery.

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In whose swings? Ben and Phil's? Cuz no, look at the pictures I've posted. Look at the numbers up above.

  On 1/27/2022 at 6:12 AM, Lugowskins said:

I could get my hands more vertical and try to look like Cam Champ at the top that would get the shaft away from my shoulder and maybe gain some speed but that just adds more moving pieces and things to time up trying to drop it back into the slot.

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No, it removes them. It gets the right elbow away from your right hip, where yours gets trapped, and gives your arms a clearer path to get down to the ball.

  On 1/27/2022 at 6:12 AM, Lugowskins said:

I'm already easily in the mid 170s for ball speed and ball striking is miles ahead of where I was just a few months ago I just think I need convincing that forcing myself to go from this to that is what's going to get me to where I want to be.  

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Again, regardless of what you decide to do, you seem to practice very poorly. As I said, you seem to agree that you shouldn't lose the grip at the top of your swing… and yet you did. You seemingly didn't do any of the "Five S Words" including the most important one: Success. You didn't successfully make a bunch of swings that changed what you were doing.

You need to go slow. You need to exaggerate. Whatever you're working on.

  On 1/27/2022 at 2:29 AM, billchao said:

It takes time to change motor function and it’s not about how much time you spend per session. You can’t make up for it by simply practicing longer per session.

If anything, doing that inhibits your ability to make changes because you’re just further ingraining your existing pattern and making up for compensations through better hand eye coordination due to repetition. That’s why when you try to do something differently it doesn’t feel right and the results aren’t as good as what you’re used to.

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You also missed that from Bill.

I can probably get more out of a pair of 15-minute practice session than you got out of two days of 5 hours each. And you could too.

In April 2020, I'd spend 2-3 hours downtown practicing. It worked. But I probably hit ≤ 100 balls most days, and basically zero of them were at full speed. And I took a lot of breaks to think about things, watch one small piece on video, etc. I didn't care if I hit a shank that traveled 40 yards if the swing was "better."

[phillyk]

  On 1/27/2022 at 6:12 AM, Lugowskins said:

I just did some looking around and watching these swings from Hogan and Mickelson I see a lot of what you're talking about as far as not a lot of width and the club almost hitting their shoulder.

 

Obviously me losing the grip at the top is gross and will be fixed just help me see why once I do that the swing couldn't be a successful one? Instead of trying to mirror what you have your student doing, high hands and looks like an over 90 degree shaft angle, what I notice in their swings is that their lead arm is across their body close to level with their back shoulder which is what I have been trying to do as it helps me from coming over the top and has simplified my delivery. I could get my hands more vertical and try to look like Cam Champ at the top that would get the shaft away from my shoulder and maybe gain some speed but that just adds more moving pieces and things to time up trying to drop it back into the slot. I'm already easily in the mid 170s for ball speed and ball striking is miles ahead of where I was just a few months ago I just think I need convincing that forcing myself to go from 

this  to that

is what's going to get me to where I want to be.  

Expand  

I think @iacas point is to help keep your arms more connected to the chest within the swing. Your arms are folding across your chest at the top of the backswing which may be causing the loss of the grip. Staying connected will, effectively, shorten the backswing a bit. Phil and Hogan were connected, especially on the downswing, where-as your arms are well behind. That isn’t lag, either.