Race and Inclusion in America and Beyond

[Bonvivant]

45 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

This would often happen even in spite of poverty.  I saw many single mom households with the mom holding it down with multiple jobs, but she came to conferences and responded to my messages quickly.  You could see the "want to" and the encouragement in her eyes.  Parents play a huge role in a kid's life.  Kids with good parents often do really well, even if they don't come from the suburbs.

Sure, but I would say that a less wealthy family is less likely to value school, on average. A less wealthy family is more likely to have a single parent household as well, which would be another reason for a parent to not care as much, because they have a house to try and support.

 

47 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

In short, there are many things that lead to a child not performing well in school.  Poverty is a huge one, no question, but there are other factors as well.  I could go on forever talking about education, but this will do for now.  I hope education makes a huge turnaround.  There are days I miss teaching, but I think I made the right choice.  Just be careful with broad generalizations.  Broad generalizations such as yours are largely false and require a more nuanced view.

The comment I was replying to was a broad generalization, that seemed to have tones of race-realism. Would you not say that overall, more Indian and Asian children have better opportunities than those afforded to the African American children? Where I live, an Indian or Asian student is WAY more likely to live in a suburb with a high performing school system. My suburb high school had around 2700 kids when I graduated, and about 30 of them were black, which was about the same as the Indian and Asian number of students, however, Asians and Indians make up a far less of the overall population. If you hop over to Dayton, the worst public schools in all of Ohio, as @mcanadiens pointed out, the percentage of African American students is very high.

Basically what I am is saying is that the African American population is far less likely to have a good shot at a good school, and more likely to have a single parent which makes it tougher for the parent to put as much in to education for their child.

25 minutes ago, finsfan21 said:

Any supporting facts to this. Or is this opinion?

Your post that I was replying to was an open ended question, but when given an answer, you pushed back, which means you probably already have your own answer. I pointed out the main factor for the difference in these groups, which is environment that has been tough for a long time, but you don't want to believe that. So what is your answer to your own question?

[finsfan21]

2 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Your post that I was replying to was an open ended question, but when given an answer, you pushed back, which means you probably already have your own answer. I pointed out the main factor for the difference in these groups, which is environment that has been tough for a long time, but you don't want to believe that. So what is your answer to your own question?

Not at all, I honestly wanted to look at the numbers. Your conclusion that that my question was dishonest in some way says way more about you than me. Peace 🙂

[Bonvivant]

24 minutes ago, finsfan21 said:

Not at all, I honestly wanted to look at the numbers. Your conclusion that that my question was dishonest in some way says way more about you than me. Peace 🙂

You are right. I think that it was a dishonest question. Now that you refuse to comment on it, I think I know what your answer was too. Here is the link to the numbers.

Poverty Rate by Race/Ethnicity | KFF

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The Kaiser Family Foundation website provides in-depth information on key health policy issues including Medicaid, Medicare, health reform, global health, HIV/AIDS, health insurance, the uninsured …

White-9% Black-22% Asian-11%

Edited June 11, 2020 by Bonvivant

[finsfan21]

Your link it to poverty numbers by race not immigration status. I was referring to the fact that you said immigrants are much better off than native minorities. I think you are incorrect but I may be wrong.That is why I asked for data.  I only responded to that portion of your post because of time constraints. You are 2 replies into this with me and both included assumptions on my character and motive. Again, that says way more about you than me. Do you always assume negative intent when having a conversation with a stranger?

[saevel25]

12 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Sure, but I would say that a less wealthy family is less likely to value school, on average. A less wealthy family is more likely to have a single parent household as well, which would be another reason for a parent to not care as much, because they have a house to try and support.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs | Simply Psychology

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Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a motivational theory in psychology comprising a five-tier model of human needs, often depicted as hierarchical...

I agree on this one. This psychological theory seems correct to me. It would seem impossible to do a lot of things we take for granted if you can't provide yourself with the baseline needs. Down low is Safety and Security. 

 

[Bonvivant]

Just now, finsfan21 said:

You are 2 replies into this with me and both included assumptions on my character and motive. Again, that says way more about you than me. Do you always assume negative intent when having a conversation with a stranger?

I apologize, but typically people that actually care about it would look it up themselves (talking about initial questions). Here is data on education and wealth of Indian-Americans.

Indian Immigrants in the United States

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Immigrants from India are the second-largest foreign-born group in the United States, after Mexicans. Indian immigrants tend to be far more highly educated and have greater English proficiency than the foreign-born...

 

[billchao]

2 minutes ago, finsfan21 said:

Your link it to poverty numbers by race not immigration status. I was referring to the fact that you said immigrants are much better off than native minorities. I think you are incorrect but I may be wrong.That is why I asked for data.  I only responded to that portion of your post because of time constraints.

I’ll try to find articles later when I have time, but the US reduced immigration restrictions back in the 1960s, but for highly educated people. So you had an influx of immigrants from East Asia and India that were college educated and were able to get better jobs, giving them an advantage over disenfranchised American minorities.

7 minutes ago, finsfan21 said:

You are 2 replies into this with me and both included assumptions on my character and motive. Again, that says way more about you than me. Do you always assume negative intent when having a conversation with a stranger?

Let’s cut this line of discussion off now. You and @Bonvivant both.

[Bonvivant]

Just now, billchao said:

I’ll try to find articles later when I have time, but the US reduced immigration restrictions back in the 1960s, but for highly educated people. So you had an influx of immigrants from East Asia and India that were college educated and were able to get better jobs, giving them an advantage over disenfranchised American minorities.

Let’s cut this line of discussion off now. You and @Bonvivant both.

Nailed it. I am surprised that this topic is up, because in my mind this is a political (dealing with policy) discussion. I went against my better judgement and commented. I should have stayed out of it altogether.

[finsfan21]

Hey man off on the wrong foot and all good. You are right I could have looked it up. I am new on this site but on the main forum I frequent, if you post an assertion you are many times asked to provide sources. I truly hope you have a great day!

 

[Bonvivant]

Just now, finsfan21 said:

Hey man off on the wrong foot and all good. You are right I could have looked it up. I am new on this site but on the main forum I frequent, if you post an assertion you are many times asked to provide sources. I truly hope you have a great day!

 

You too, cheers!

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, Bonvivant said:

I apologize, but typically people that actually care about it would look it up themselves (talking about initial questions). Here is data on education and wealth of Indian-Americans.

Just some stats from the website, 

Quote

The median household income for Indian immigrants in 2015 was much higher than that of the overall foreign- and native-born populations. Households headed by Indian immigrants had a median income of $107,000, compared to $51,000 and $56,000 for overall immigrant and native-born households, respectively.

Just 7 percent of Indian immigrants lived in poverty in 2015, a much lower rate than the foreign-born population overall and the U.S. born (17 percent and 14 percent, respectively).

For Asian Immigrants, 

Quote

Asian immigrants have significantly higher incomes than the total foreign- and U.S.-born populations. In 2014, the median income of households headed by an Asian immigrant was $70,000, compared to $49,000 and $55,000 for overall immigrant and native-born households, respectively. Households headed by Indian ($105,000), Taiwanese ($91,000), Filipino ($82,000), and Malaysian ($80,000) immigrants had the highest median income among all Asian immigrant groups, while Saudi ($22,000), Iraqi ($27,000), and Burmese ($38,000) households had the lowest median incomes.

It looks like the modern immigration pattern is for more affluent families who already have a leg up. Maybe the exception is Hispanic immigrants who are fleeing Mexico. They are probably more like the European immigrants in the 1800's and early 1900's. 

This kinda gets into social-economical mobility. 

Socioeconomic mobility in the United States - Wikipedia

 

[Bonvivant]

@saevel25, exactly. Aside from the Southern border, immigrants coming to the US are already economically privileged (generally). Much easier to be successful when you have a leg up. These groups still experience racism, but its more along the lines of the slow play on the PGA, where plenty of players do it, but it only gets enforced on minorities.

[ncates00]

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

Basically what I am is saying is that the African American population is far less likely to have a good shot at a good school

To some degree, yes.  It also depends on what your definition of a "good school" is.  However, with affirmative action and lower expectations of ACT scores, I would push back.  I saw many of my students get really low ACT scores (21 and lower) get into well-known, large public schools and with scholarship money to boot.

 

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

Sure, but I would say that a less wealthy family is less likely to value school, on average.

Again, a broad generalization that I will disagree with.  

 

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

A less wealthy family is more likely to have a single parent household

Ok, yeah.

 

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

which would be another reason for a parent to not care as much, because they have a house to try and support.

What does that have to do with the kid's academics?  The child is at school 8 hours a day; the parent can still "push" the kid to do academics all the while running the household.  The parent can still "have a house to try and support" while the kid is in school.  That's kinda what good parenting (poor or not) is by definition...

I'm not stating poverty isn't a big deal.  I've agreed as much and personally lived a version of it.  However, you're bailing parents out too much here by emphasizing poverty.  Poor (in wealth) parents can still be good parents that push their kids.  After all, good parents want what's best for their kids and try to instill certain core values in their kids.  Sure, you can argue that wealthier families have more resources at their disposal to achieve their parenting goals; I'm not disputing that.  But that's not the point.  You're providing too large of an "out" for parents.  To say that because a parent is poor that they don't value their kid's education is pretty ridiculous remark.  I'd push back and say that it's because of their economic position that many parents will push their kids so that their children can lead a better life than the one they had.  I've seen far too many kids come from poor backgrounds that succeed to buy your argument without reservation.  Poverty is simply part of the problem, but by no means is it dispositive.  

[finsfan21]

4 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

To some degree, yes.  It also depends on what your definition of a "good school" is.  However, with affirmative action and lower expectations of ACT scores, I would push back.  I saw many of my students get really low ACT scores (21 and lower) get into well-known, large public schools and with scholarship money to boot.

 

Again, a broad generalization that I will disagree with.  

 

Ok, yeah.

 

What does that have to do with the kid's academics?  The child is at school 8 hours a day; the parent can still "push" the kid to do academics all the while running the household.  The parent can still "have a house to try and support" while the kid is in school.  That's kinda what good parenting (poor or not) is by definition...

I'm not stating poverty isn't a big deal.  I've agreed as much and personally lived a version of it.  However, you're bailing parents out too much here by emphasizing poverty.  Poor (in wealth) parents can still be good parents that push their kids.  After all, good parents want what's best for their kids and try to instill certain core values in their kids.  Sure, you can argue that wealthier families have more resources at their disposal to achieve their parenting goals; I'm not disputing that.  But that's not the point.  You're providing too large of an "out" for parents.  To say that because a parent is poor that they don't value their kid's education is pretty ridiculous remark.  I'd push back and say that it's because of their economic position that many parents will push their kids so that their children can lead a better life than the one they had.  I've seen far too many kids come from poor backgrounds that succeed to buy your argument without reservation.  Poverty is simply part of the problem, but by no means is it dispositive.  

I agree with this . I was raised in a single parent "home" I say home because it was a 1948 school bus with no running water for myself. mother, and 3 siblings. We were beyond poor. But my mother would allow no excuses. We were raised to be polite, hard working, and never to blame anyone for our circumstances. All 4 kids went on to have upper middle class incomes and improve their lot in life.  Most of the people that we associated with as kids are either dead, in jail, or living off the system. The difference was their parents (mostly singe moms) did not parent them. They enabled them. Parent, in my opinion,  is a verb.  For the record I am white, so I had whatever advantage you think that gave me.

 

[billchao]

45 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Nailed it. I am surprised that this topic is up, because in my mind this is a political (dealing with policy) discussion. I went against my better judgement and commented. I should have stayed out of it altogether.

The arguments you made are valid. It’s the discussion you were having with @finsfan21 about each other’s mindset that needed to stop.

[ncates00]

3 minutes ago, finsfan21 said:

Parent, in my opinion,  is a verb. 

Well said.  Rich parents can be worse than less wealthy parents.  It truly is a verb and a daily commitment to raise one's children to the best of your abilities and instilling core values to provide for a better life for one's child.

Again, none of my remarks are to be taken as to minimize the impact of poverty.  However, I am arguing that poverty is only one of many pieces of the puzzle that we should try to figure out.

[boogielicious]

Folks, let’s stay on topic here. We aren’t discussing immigration. The topic is the BLM movement.

[saevel25]