What's My Next Shot After This Tee Shot?

[xcelrr8]

Over the weekend I played Oyster Bay Golf Links and on this hole my tee shot followed one of these two paths.  There was a very strong wind moving the ball to the right so from our point of view it stayed left of the 1st sand trap.  After that we would be guessing as to where it landed and bounced out.  Or if it never landed and just went straight out.  What would be my next shot?  There were no white stakes and I remember the starter saying that most of the course is a lateral drop.  Regardless of what the starter said I still wasn't sure what to do.  Please help for the next time I find myself in this situation.

Cheers  

[DaveP043]

Welcome to The Sand Trap!  

Whether its marked or not, any body of water is a Penalty Area, and unless marked with Yellow stakes it is considered a Red Penalty Area.  So you have 3 basic relief options under Rule 17.1d:

Replay the shot from the tee, called Stroke and Distance Relief

Take back on the line relief, keeping the spot where the ball last crossed into the Penalty Area, and going back as far as you like.  Seeing that its entirely marsh, this isn't really available for you.

Take Lateral Relief, drop within two clublengths from the spot where the ball last crossed into the Penalty Area.

And of course you can wade out into the marsh and play the original, so I guess you have four options.  I do remember one big gator at Oyster Bay, I bet he has relatives out in that marsh.  I suggest you read this rule at:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=17&subrulenum=1

They have some illustrations for each of the types of Relief available that should make it fairly clear.

[xcelrr8]

5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Welcome to The Sand Trap!  

Whether its marked or not, any body of water is a Penalty Area, and unless marked with Yellow stakes it is considered a Red Penalty Area.  So you have 3 basic relief options under Rule 17.1d:

Replay the shot from the tee, called Stroke and Distance Relief

Take back on the line relief, keeping the spot where the ball last crossed into the Penalty Area, and going back as far as you like.  Seeing that its entirely marsh, this isn't really available for you.

Take Lateral Relief, drop within two clublengths from the spot where the ball last crossed into the Penalty Area.

And of course you can wade out into the marsh and play the original, so I guess you have four options.  I do remember one big gator at Oyster Bay, I bet he has relatives out in that marsh.  I suggest you read this rule at:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=17&subrulenum=1

They have some illustrations for each of the types of Relief available that should make it fairly clear.

Thanks 

We actually got a picture of the 15' gator chillin on the par three.  After that I was not going anywhere in the marshes or water.  

So it only matters where it last crossed before going into the hazard?  For the imaginary hole below you would take the drop where is splashed in.  And not where it first crossed the water?  So it does matter if the ball crosses back over land even though it never touched it?

 

 

[DaveP043]

36 minutes ago, xcelrr8 said:

Thanks 

We actually got a picture of the 15' gator chillin on the par three.  After that I was not going anywhere in the marshes or water.  

So it only matters where it last crossed before going into the hazard?  For the imaginary hole below you would take the drop where is splashed in.  And not where it first crossed the water?  So it does matter if the ball crosses back over land even though it never touched it?

You have it right, its the flight of the ball, not whether it bounced on dry land or not, and its where the ball LAST crossed the edge of the Penalty Area.  

Oh, and that gator has been there by the 16th tee for decades, I think I first played there in the late 1980's, and he was there.

[StuM]

1 hour ago, xcelrr8 said:

Over the weekend I played Oyster Bay Golf Links and on this hole my tee shot followed one of these two paths.  There was a very strong wind moving the ball to the right so from our point of view it stayed left of the 1st sand trap.  After that we would be guessing as to where it landed and bounced out.  Or if it never landed and just went straight out.  What would be my next shot?  There were no white stakes and I remember the starter saying that most of the course is a lateral drop.  Regardless of what the starter said I still wasn't sure what to do.  Please help for the next time I find myself in this situation.

Cheers  

Since you do not know where it crossed into the hazard I think you have only one choice, Stroke & Distance so hitting 3 off the tee.  I'm not a rules master so I am open to being corrected.

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, StuM said:

Since you do not know where it crossed into the hazard I think you have only one choice, Stroke & Distance so hitting 3 off the tee.  I'm not a rules master so I am open to being corrected.

I'd say the Rules allow the player to make his best judgement on this, look at 1.3b(2).

[iacas]

2 hours ago, StuM said:

Since you do not know where it crossed into the hazard I think you have only one choice, Stroke & Distance so hitting 3 off the tee.  I'm not a rules master so I am open to being corrected.

Yeah, no. That only applies if you're not virtually certain it's in the penalty area.

[xcelrr8]

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yeah, no. That only applies if you're not virtually certain it's in the penalty area.

Yeah, wind was coming strong from left to right and once it got above the tree line it moved over the sand trap and towards that single tree.  So my best estimate was somewhere between those two lines.  The group I was with made me re-tee since they were trying to beat me so I did since I didn't know the rule.  Now I know so that won't happen again.  I won anyway so all good.

[denkea]

Well, I'm going to have to go against the consensus here.  Unless you know for virtual certainty that you ball crossed into the penalty area ask yourself this.  Is there a possibility that your ball could be lost outside the penalty area?  IF so then you would need to act accordingly.  Back to the tee or if E 5 was in effect then out to the fairway and add 2 strokes.  

Edited September 28, 2021 by denkea

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

Well, I'm going to have to go against the consensus here.  Unless you know for virtual certainty that you ball crossed into the penalty area ask yourself this.  Is there a possibility that your ball could be lost outside the penalty area?  IF so then you would need to act accordingly.  Back to the tee or if E 5 was in effect then out to the fairway and add 2 strokes.  

I don't think you're going against the consensus, really, I'd certainly agree that the ball must be Known or Virtually Certain to be in the Penalty Area.  As I read the original post, I believe that @xcelrr8 WAS virtually certain that the ball was in the PA, and was asking about what his relief options were.  

[StuM]

I think from the OP all players felt it was in the PA or the opponents would not have pushed for S&D. The question I am struggling with is making a "Reasonable Judgement" on where the ball crossed into the PA to identify where to drop.  In the OP photo the red line (possible path 1) crosses into the PA just a little past the 1st bunker (Not where the red line ends, more like half-way along the red line) and the white line (possible path 2) enters the PA past the 2nd bunker.  It's hard to tell from the diagram but is the difference between the 2 points 30-40-50 yards?  The greater the distance between the two potential areas the less likely to make a "Reasonable Judgement" of where it entered and where to drop.  I understand that without TV Cameras and Forecaddies none of know exactly where our ball may have crossed, we pick a tree, bush or other landmark and use that, but at what point does it become impossible to make a "Reasonable Judgement".  Also, I understand the problem with the word "Reasonable" but that is what I see in Rule 1.3 per below.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=1

 

22 hours ago, xcelrr8 said:

After that we would be guessing as to where it landed and bounced out.

Adding on, even in the OP they said it would be guess where it went out.

[xcelrr8]

On 9/28/2021 at 9:04 AM, StuM said:

I think from the OP all players felt it was in the PA or the opponents would not have pushed for S&D. The question I am struggling with is making a "Reasonable Judgement" on where the ball crossed into the PA to identify where to drop.  In the OP photo the red line (possible path 1) crosses into the PA just a little past the 1st bunker (Not where the red line ends, more like half-way along the red line) and the white line (possible path 2) enters the PA past the 2nd bunker.  It's hard to tell from the diagram but is the difference between the 2 points 30-40-50 yards?  The greater the distance between the two potential areas the less likely to make a "Reasonable Judgement" of where it entered and where to drop.  I understand that without TV Cameras and Forecaddies none of know exactly where our ball may have crossed, we pick a tree, bush or other landmark and use that, but at what point does it become impossible to make a "Reasonable Judgement".  Also, I understand the problem with the word "Reasonable" but that is what I see in Rule 1.3 per below.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=1

 

Adding on, even in the OP they said it would be guess where it went out.

I struggle with "Virtually Certain" all the time since us mortals don't have zoom vision.  I've bet my buddies that my ball was in a trap only to find that it was 40 yards past it.  None of us can see the course from above while we're playing so we can "only" estimate as to where our ball is.  I normally hit around 250/300 yards off the tee so I am always guessing as to where my ball is even when I'm dead center in the fairway.  Very few holes give an unobstructed view of the fairway to see where the ball bounces or bounces out.  If "virtually certain" means that you need to see it in the hazard then that's f'd up.  I'd like to see tour pros get no assistance in finding their ball like all of us.  That would result in way more drops and re-hits just like the rest of us.  I will use "Reasonable Judgement" over "Virtually Certain" because that does not exist on a course without help 250 yards down.     

[DaveP043]

5 minutes ago, xcelrr8 said:

If "virtually certain" means that you need to see it in the hazard then that's f'd up.

I don't think that KVC is a problem, in general, other than players needing to understand its more conclusive than "best guess".  You do NOT need to be able to see the ball in the Penalty Area.  For this particular hole, relying on the satellite photos and my memory, this is fairway, a couple of bunkers, and well-trimmed rough right up to the edge of the Penalty Area.  If a ball isn't found, its Virtually Certain to be in the PA, there's no place else it could be.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, xcelrr8 said:

I will use "Reasonable Judgement" over "Virtually Certain" because that does not exist on a course without help 250 yards down.

That’s not true.

[ChetlovesMer]

3 hours ago, xcelrr8 said:

I struggle with "Virtually Certain" all the time since us mortals don't have zoom vision.  I've bet my buddies that my ball was in a trap only to find that it was 40 yards past it.  None of us can see the course from above while we're playing so we can "only" estimate as to where our ball is.  I normally hit around 250/300 yards off the tee so I am always guessing as to where my ball is even when I'm dead center in the fairway.  Very few holes give an unobstructed view of the fairway to see where the ball bounces or bounces out.  If "virtually certain" means that you need to see it in the hazard then that's f'd up.  I'd like to see tour pros get no assistance in finding their ball like all of us.  That would result in way more drops and re-hits just like the rest of us.  I will use "Reasonable Judgement" over "Virtually Certain" because that does not exist on a course without help 250 yards down.     

You should use orange golf balls. I know from experience that they are much easier to see go into penalty areas. 

[Shorty]

4 hours ago, xcelrr8 said:

I struggle with "Virtually Certain" all the time since us mortals don't have zoom vision.  I've bet my buddies that my ball was in a trap only to find that it was 40 yards past it.  .................. I will use "Reasonable Judgement" over "Virtually Certain" because that does not exist on a course without help 250 yards down.     

I hate to break it to you but you've destroyed your own argument with your own example.

 This is EXACTLY why you have to be virtually certain. You have more chance of being virtually certain that you DON'T KNOW where your ball is than you have of your "reasonable judgement" being correct in examples like yours. Probably best just to play by the rules than to make up your own because it might shave  a couple of shots of your score.

[StuM]

5 hours ago, xcelrr8 said:

I'd like to see tour pros get no assistance in finding their ball like all of us

I too would like to see that.  Unfortunately, nothing will stop the fans from converging on the area the ball landed so they will always have a better chance of finding it than us non-tour players.

In the OP I am not struggling at all with being "Virtually Certain" the ball was in the hazard.  It seems to me both the player & his opponents all felt very confident it was in the PA.  My issue is the "Reasonable Judgement" on where it entered the hazard and thus where to drop.  My issue is the OP clearly said:

On 9/27/2021 at 1:53 PM, xcelrr8 said:

There was a very strong wind moving the ball to the right so from our point of view it stayed left of the 1st sand trap.  After that we would be guessing as to where it landed and bounced out

Can a "Guess" be considered "Reasonable Judgement?  Not knowing the course I cannot tell distances but how long is the potential area that it may have crossed into the PA?  Player's Edition Rule 1.3 reads "There are times when you must make estimates, such as the spot where to replace your ball, the point where your ball crossed the edge of a penalty area or when taking relief under the Rules.  You are expected to consider all available information and to make a reasonable judgment in the circumstances. "  The Full Rules 1.3b2 reads So long as the player does what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate determination, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if, after the stroke is made, the determination is shown to be wrong by video evidence or other information. 

I have no problem if you say "It went out just past this tall pine" and you drop in the vicinity of the tall pine vs. "It went out somewhere between here & 50 yards forward" and you choose to drop at the point closest to the green or the spot that gives you the clearest approach to the green based on your "Guess".   

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, StuM said:

Can a "Guess" be considered "Reasonable Judgement?

You can't use "reasonable judgment" to determine if your ball is in a PA. If virtually certain it is in the PA, you can use reasonable judgment to determine where to drop.