Hazard Question

[darthweasel]

narrow creek on left side of fairway., red stakes on both sides and to the left of the second stake is a play area from the executive course next door that is grass. Hit it too far as someone...certainly not me...did last night and you can clear your red stake, the hazard, the second red stake which I presume is the other courses' stake, the grass and go into some deep brush. Fortunately I found...I mean, whoever hit that abomination found...their ball and hit the green but my question is this: the ball crossed two hazard lines but did not land in a hazard: is this a down and distance where it must be replayed from the box or it it considered in the hazard since it crossed the red stakes? Looked around a bit but could not find this specific situation covered which probably means it is highlighted, double underlined and brutally obvious...

[DaveP043]

21 minutes ago, darthweasel said:

narrow creek on left side of fairway., red stakes on both sides and to the left of the second stake is a play area from the executive course next door that is grass. Hit it too far as someone...certainly not me...did last night and you can clear your red stake, the hazard, the second red stake which I presume is the other courses' stake, the grass and go into some deep brush. Fortunately I found...I mean, whoever hit that abomination found...their ball and hit the green but my question is this: the ball crossed two hazard lines but did not land in a hazard: is this a down and distance where it must be replayed from the box or it it considered in the hazard since it crossed the red stakes? Looked around a bit but could not find this specific situation covered which probably means it is highlighted, double underlined and brutally obvious...

Those two lines of stakes define both edges of what must be a moderately narrow Penalty Area.  This situation is pretty common when there's a creek running through a course, both sides of the Penalty Area are defined in some way, stakes, point, or just the ground topography. The parts of the course to the right of the first line of stakes, and to the left of the second line of stakes, is General Area.  What is important is where the ball ended up, not its path, but its final resting spot.  If it had been between the two lines of stakes, it would be in the Penalty Area.  But the way you describe it, the ball was in the General Area, so you were just fine playing it.  

All of this assumes there's not something in the local rules that defines the executive course next door as OB.

[ChetlovesMer]

44 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

All of this assumes there's not something in the local rules that defines the executive course next door as OB.

I think it would be a very rare instance in which your ball can leave the boundaries of the course you are playing and not be OB. 

 

1 hour ago, darthweasel said:

the other courses' stake, the grass and go into some deep brush. 

If it is not on the property of the course which you are playing it is almost always out of bounds. 

[darthweasel]

if I don't find the ball (both courses part of the same property, they used to have 3 rotating nines and at some point converted one to an executive course), I presume cannot treat it as lateral? 

[ChetlovesMer]

1 minute ago, darthweasel said:

if I don't find the ball (both courses part of the same property, they used to have 3 rotating nines and at some point converted one to an executive course), I presume cannot treat it as lateral? 

Just curious, do you pay different money to play the executive course. If so, I'm guessing it's not "the same course", so it would have to be out of bounds. But what do I know? I went to Ch!cago Publ!c Sch00ls. 

I haven't been everywhere, but if you leave the course you paid to play, that's generally out of bounds. 

[DaveP043]

16 minutes ago, darthweasel said:

if I don't find the ball (both courses part of the same property, they used to have 3 rotating nines and at some point converted one to an executive course), I presume cannot treat it as lateral? 

If your ball ends up in the Red Penalty Area, that's exactly the same as ending up in a Lateral Water Hazard in 2018.  But in order to play under the Penalty Area Rules (Rule 17 now), you must have Knowledge or Virtual Certainty (read that definition in the Rules) that your ball is indeed IN the Penalty Area, as opposed to in the other fairway.  If you're not 95% sure the ball is between the two lines of stakes, then it is Lost, and you must take Stroke and Distance Relief (or Relief under the Model Local Rule E-5, if its in effect).

17 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I haven't been everywhere, but if you leave the course you paid to play, that's generally out of bounds. 

The Out of Bounds are defined by the Committee, either with stakes or lines, or by a description somewhere.  Neighboring properties are not OB under the Rules unless the Committee defines them that way.  I agree, generally there's a note on the scorecard, or stakes, but not necessarily.

[ChetlovesMer]

6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The Out of Bounds are defined by the Committee, either with stakes or lines, or by a description somewhere.  Neighboring properties are not OB under the Rules unless the Committee defines them that way.  I agree, generally there's a note on the scorecard, or stakes, but not necessarily.

Good to know. 
I always assume if I leave the golf course I'm supposed to be playing, then I'm OB. But I guess not. Thanks.👍

[DaveP043]

Just now, ChetlovesMer said:

Good to know. 
I always assume if I leave the golf course I'm supposed to be playing, then I'm OB. But I guess not. Thanks.👍

Yeah, the definition in the Rules leaves the issue open if the Committee doesn't do their job properly.  IT could certainly lead to a conflict between a golfer who understands that his ball isn't OB under the Rules, and the person who owns the property where that ball is sitting.

[iacas]

Yeah, this remains an oddity.

Years back we had a topic where I asked the USGA if a ball was across the street in the parking lot of a gas station, if you could — as you can for a penalty area (then a water hazard) — use the definition to say "yeah, my ball is OB" as you can when your ball is in a pond or a stream.

They said no, and I countered with "then technically someone can be DQed for practicing on the golf course" if they're hitting balls in their yards in the direction of the gas station before the round. And technically, they would be…

Long story short: the committee MUST mark boundary lines. Sometimes it doesn't matter - like the boundary is the edge of a cliff and you're not going to find your ball if it goes over anyway. But sometimes, like here, it matters. Is the neighboring course in bounds? Or out?

[billchao]

@darthweasel does it say anywhere on the scorecard if the executive course is OB? If it's not and it's definitely not staked OB then I would have played it, too. Earlier in the year I pushed a tee shot on a par 3 off the course but there were no stakes to mark OB and nothing on the scorecard indicated it was OB so I played it. It was clearly off the course, though, because it ended up in the grass on the side of the road that the town maintained.

Though this got me thinking, could the course mark the penalty area on the side that @darthweasel was playing on and say it goes on indefinitely? And do the same for the executive course side, so the stream is marked on both sides but is only meant to be a lateral boundary depending on what side you're playing?

[saevel25]

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The Out of Bounds are defined by the Committee, either with stakes or lines, or by a description somewhere.  Neighboring properties are not OB under the Rules unless the Committee defines them that way.  I agree, generally there's a note on the scorecard, or stakes, but not necessarily.

This is something I check on every course I play.

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

Though this got me thinking, could the course mark the penalty area on the side that @darthweasel was playing on and say it goes on indefinitely? And do the same for the executive course side, so the stream is marked on both sides but is only meant to be a lateral boundary depending on what side you're playing

Its possible to define a PA as extending to "infinity", so I think it could be done here.  That wouldn't stop a player from playing from the other side, playing from the Penalty Area rather than from the General Area.  They could also write it up so that the second set of stakes from each side mark the OB when playing from that side, to keep players on their own side of the creek.

[darthweasel]

16 hours ago, billchao said:

@darthweasel does it say anywhere on the scorecard if the executive course is OB? If it's not and it's definitely not staked OB then I would have played it, too. Earlier in the year I pushed a tee shot on a par 3 off the course but there were no stakes to mark OB and nothing on the scorecard indicated it was OB so I played it. It was clearly off the course, though, because it ended up in the grass on the side of the road that the town maintained.

Though this got me thinking, could the course mark the penalty area on the side that @darthweasel was playing on and say it goes on indefinitely? And do the same for the executive course side, so the stream is marked on both sides but is only meant to be a lateral boundary depending on what side you're playing?

 

they do not. in fact, this particular course (Meriwether Golf Course, the hole in question is 11) has a monthly pass for unlimited golf and I have literally seen people jump back and forth who had the pass when there was an opening. At this particular location, there are kind of three holes that converge...#8 from the executive and the tee box for 15 from the one I am playing...and the area is pretty wide. Seen people land there from both 11 and 14 (and, in fact, the green for 14 is dangerously close to the tee box for 15...I have sailed the green more than once with an accompanying terrified "fore" scream....never domed anyone but not for lack of incompetence

[DaveP043]

39 minutes ago, darthweasel said:

 

they do not. in fact, this particular course (Meriwether Golf Course, the hole in question is 11) has a monthly pass for unlimited golf and I have literally seen people jump back and forth who had the pass when there was an opening. At this particular location, there are kind of three holes that converge...#8 from the executive and the tee box for 15 from the one I am playing...and the area is pretty wide. Seen people land there from both 11 and 14 (and, in fact, the green for 14 is dangerously close to the tee box for 15...I have sailed the green more than once with an accompanying terrified "fore" scream....never domed anyone but not for lack of incompetence

That makes it even more clear, the Scorecard specifically says the OB limits are white stakes on holes 10 (driving range area), 16, and 18. 

Left of 11 is in play.