How Can You Tell If You Can Drop "No Closer to Hole"?

[chspeed]

I'm sure this has been covered, but I can't find the answer. We play a par three that looks like this:

 

The area left of the green is steep, and anything that hits there bounces hard into the hazard. Assuming you cross the hazard where I put the X. I've seen players simply drop in front of the X, which would put you closer to the hole then where you crossed. Considering the hazard boundary is curved, it's often hard to know if it's even possible to drop closer to the hole and be only 2 club lengths away. What to do?

[Shorty]

You drop at point of entry into the penalty area. 
 

Point of entry is the long and short of it.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Shorty

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, chspeed said:

The area left of the green is steep, and anything that hits there bounces hard into the hazard. Assuming you cross the hazard where I put the X. I've seen players simply drop in front of the X, which would put you closer to the hole then where you crossed. Considering the hazard boundary is curved, it's often hard to know if it's even possible to drop closer to the hole and be only 2 club lengths away. What to do?

You have to use your best judgement, and you have to behave with integrity.  Simply because the Rule describe multiple relief options, that doesn't mean that every one of the options is going to be available in every circumstance.  If there's no spot in the General Area within 2 clublengths that's not closer to the hole, then you're not allowed to take Lateral Relief.  Or there may be just a few inches that fits the requirements, but your backswing will be hindered by brush in the Penalty Area, or you'd have to have one foot in the water.  OK, that's what you get, or you can choose to take Stroke and Distance.  

1 minute ago, Shorty said:

You drop at point of entry into the penalty area. 
There is no “not closer to hole” requirement in this scenario - or any red stake scenario.

Point of entry is the long and short of it.

If you read 17.1d(3), you'd see that one of the limitations on the Relief Area is "Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point", with the Reference Point being defined as the "point of entry".  

[Shorty]

Yes- I seem to have confused myself here!  Thanks Dave.
Unless the ball enters from a tiny peninsula, there would generally be a spot within 2 club lengths that is not closer to the hole.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Shorty

[DaveP043]

13 minutes ago, Shorty said:

Yes- I seem to have confused myself here!  Thanks Dave.
Unless the ball enters from a tiny peninsula, there would generally be a spot within 2 club lengths that is not closer to the hole.

Yeah, its unusual, but I know of a few places on my own home course where there's no place for Lateral Relief.  If that's the case, its a good idea to establish a Dropping Zone so player's has a choice other than Stroke and Distance. 

[billchao]

47 minutes ago, chspeed said:

I'm sure this has been covered, but I can't find the answer. We play a par three that looks like this:

 

The area left of the green is steep, and anything that hits there bounces hard into the hazard. Assuming you cross the hazard where I put the X. I've seen players simply drop in front of the X, which would put you closer to the hole then where you crossed. Considering the hazard boundary is curved, it's often hard to know if it's even possible to drop closer to the hole and be only 2 club lengths away. What to do?

Dropping in front of X would be incorrect and I know it’s not an accurate depiction of the hole, but based on the drawing there might be an area you can drop there using X as the reference point.

It might be a tiny sliver of ground but if the curve of the penalty area has a larger radius than the curve of the area that’s closer to the hole it will be there, especially if the hole is closer to the penalty area itself. Think of drawing a small circle inside a larger one; there are areas that don’t overlap near the point X where the two circles meet.

It might also help if we could see the actual hole in question.

[ColinL]

I think it's being overlooked that If lateral relief isn't possible, there are two remaining options, back on the line as well as stroke and distance.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, ColinL said:

I think it's being overlooked that If lateral relief isn't possible, there are two remaining options, back on the line as well as stroke and distance.

I don’t think they’re being overlooked. I’m assuming based on the drawing that back on the line relief is probably unavailable and @DaveP043 mentioned stroke and distance.

[ColinL]

6 hours ago, billchao said:

I don’t think they’re being overlooked. I’m assuming based on the drawing that back on the line relief is probably unavailable and @DaveP043 mentioned stroke and distance.

My point was that  it sounded as if stroke and distance was referred  to as the only option after finding that lateral relief wasn't possible.  Back on the line is also an available option.    Whether wise or possible to choose is another matter which I wouldn't venture  a view on based on a line on a drawing.  

Edited October 2, 2022 by ColinL

[iacas]

3 hours ago, ColinL said:

My point was that  it sounded as if stroke and distance was referred  to as the only option after finding that lateral relief wasn't possible.  Back on the line is also an available option.    Whether wise or possible to choose is another matter which I wouldn't venture  a view on based on a line on a drawing.  

The drawing makes it look like that’s not a viable option though.

It would help as Bill said to see the actual hole in question. What hole on what course @chspeed?

[GolfLug]

Seems like back on the line would be further in the penalty area. Must be a very tight radiused section to not be able to drop within within two clubs and further from the hole from X.

Interesting. Yah, might as well be OB.

[chspeed]

 

18 hours ago, billchao said:

It might be a tiny sliver of ground but if the curve of the penalty area has a larger radius than the curve of the area that’s closer to the hole it will be there, especially if the hole is closer to the penalty area itself. Think of drawing a small circle inside a larger one; there are areas that don’t overlap near the point X where the two circles meet.

Yes, that's right. The drawing was an estimate, but the boundary is definitely curved and it's difficult to tell if that point exists or not.

 

4 hours ago, iacas said:

t would help as Bill said to see the actual hole in question. What hole on what course @chspeed?

It's the 6th hole at Hudson Hills. Here's a flyover photo I found, not sure if it's helpful. As you can see, other than stroke and distance, you don't really have any other options.

 

[billchao]

46 minutes ago, chspeed said:

 

Yes, that's right. The drawing was an estimate, but the boundary is definitely curved and it's difficult to tell if that point exists or not.

 

It's the 6th hole at Hudson Hills. Here's a flyover photo I found, not sure if it's helpful. As you can see, other than stroke and distance, you don't really have any other options.

 

This hole, right?

It's crudely drawn but just as an example, anyway. Let's say you entered at the blue X. There's likely a drop area within two clublengths of the reference point in both of the hole locations I used. It's just not directly in front of the point at which the ball crossed.

[chspeed]

6 hours ago, billchao said:

This hole, right?

It's crudely drawn but just as an example, anyway. Let's say you entered at the blue X. There's likely a drop area within two clublengths of the reference point in both of the hole locations I used. It's just not directly in front of the point at which the ball crossed.

Yup, that damned hole. Looks so easy. Can't tell you how many times I've landed on that stupid hill just left of the green.

Anyway, you're probably right. But it's hard to tell where you crossed when you're on the tee, and some points (like the one deepest into the hazard) clearly have no drop that isn't closer to the hole. It's also impossible to drop, and even place the ball because the hill leading to the hazard is very steep.

Note to self: Bail out right.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, chspeed said:

It's also impossible to drop, and even place the ball because the hill leading to the hazard is very steep.

This is where you should read Rule 14.3c(2).  Essentially you drop once, if the ball doesn't stay in the Relief Area you drop again.  If it doesn't stay the second time, you place it where it landed.  If you try to place it twice and it still won't come to rest, you find the nearest place it WILL stay at rest.  You might end up going well out of the Relief Area to find that nearest place, which COULD get you to a better spot.  No guarantees, but this particular Rule can sometimes help, if you understand it.