Awesome Shallowing Video

[Big Lex]

Solid video here that I watched from Athletic Motion Golf. It talks about how golfers mis-perceive "shallow" and "steep" and the right (and wrong) ways to "get shallow" during the downswing.

Text added by Erik so that when this topic is linked elsewhere, the preview isn't blank.

[iacas]

I haven’t watched it yet but I kind of expected some commentary, not just a link to the video. 🙂

What did you particularly like about it? Anything you didn’t like or had questions on?

[boogielicious]

It’s a good video but somewhat complicated. You have to watch it a couple of times and do the motions along with the video to get the feel. It’s very close to what @iacas has me working on, but not with ‘shallowing’ as the focus per se. 

[Big Lex]

The things I really like about the video: 

1. The use of the motion capture software to isolate the actual shallowing movement of the trail arm, and showing the correct/tour way, versus the common, mistaken ways amateurs use the right arm. I found this extremely clear and useful. 

2. The explanation of what "shallowing" is, and isn't, again with very clever and creative use of software demonstrations. 

3. The ensemble graphic at the beginning, showing the overlay of dozens of tour swings, and the cool way the clubs are in a gazillion locations at the top, and then gradually all converge to a single point (clubhead, anyway) at the ball. Just soooooo cool. 

Things I did not like, or like less 🙂: It _is_ a bit long, and somewhat complicated in areas; it's not a bite-sized video. There is alot to digest, so it takes some time and patience. 

Questions I have: 

1. What is the timing or sequencing of the (trail arm lowering) motion, compared to, say the winding of the hips, and/or the shift of pressure from the trail foot to the lead foot? 

2. What is the software he is using in those demos of the right and wrong way to shallow? I assumed AMG used GEARS, but those avatars don't look like GEARS avatars and so is it GEARS data fed into some other system, or is the motion capture and the demonstration BOTH of some other system? 

3. Just in general, what do people think? I felt like this was the best explanation of "shallowing," a sort of de-mystifying of something, akin to how a few years back people finally began to demystify "lag." 

4. When I try to work on this shallowing move, I notice a few things: Club head speed increased a little, the swing felt "easier" as if the club was more in balance, and that when I missed the sweet spot, it was always toward the toe. I realize it's alot to ask without video, but any idea why doing this move might bias my missed toward the toe of the club? 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Big Lex

[Big Lex]

One more thing I didn't understand was his assertion at the very beginning that the club is "as shallow at the top as at any point in the swing." I'm not sure I follow that. How can a face-on view be used to interpret "shallowness," if you define shallow relative to the shaft's angle to the ball from a DTL view? To take the direction the shaft points at the top from FO is to create a new definition of shallow, it's not really another way to view shallow as it's defined the other way. If that makes sense. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Big Lex

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Big Lex said:

2. What is the software he is using in those demos of the right and wrong way to shallow? I assumed AMG used GEARS, but those avatars don't look like GEARS avatars and so is it GEARS data fed into some other system, or is the motion capture and the demonstration BOTH of some other system?

They created an "AMG robot" that they can use to demonstrate things. They still use GEARS to capture everything. This avatar is just a 3D model.

34 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

One more thing I didn't understand was his assertion at the very beginning that the club is "as shallow at the top as at any point in the swing." I'm not sure I follow that. How can a face-on view be used to interpret "shallowness," if you define shallow relative to the shaft's angle to the ball from a DTL view? To take the direction the shaft points at the top from FO is to create a new definition of shallow, it's not really another way to view shallow as it's defined the other way. If that makes sense. 

I think what they mean by that is if you measure the angle of the shaft relative to the plane or something, it's as shallow as it gets. It points at the target line but very low through you as well. At most other points in the swing it's "steeper" than that relative to the golfer's frame of reference. It's not going through your belt at any other point in the swing.

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Still haven't watched it. Hope to later tonight.

[Darkfrog]

I like videos like this breaking down concepts that are maybe not well understood by the majority of amateur golfers. I also like how the "shallowing" portion of the swing was isolated from the other body movements. I would have preferred a live human showing the move after the various AMG avatar moves (which I find a little strange looking). Like maybe add a 2-3 minute segment on the end that shows how a person could practice this concept.

I'm not sure if this is the case, but to me it demonstrates that "shallowing" is the result of good swing mechanics, and not something that one can steer the club into by moving the wrists/arms in a certain way. I know when I started playing golf again 5-6 years ago I completely misunderstood this and would try to lay the club flat and behind me at transition leading to all kinds of awful shit.

[saevel25]

2 hours ago, Darkfrog said:

I'm not sure if this is the case, but to me it demonstrates that "shallowing" is the result of good swing mechanics, and not something that one can steer the club into by moving the wrists/arms in a certain way.

I think that getting the club into a good spot at the top of the swing helps in setting up the ability to transition correctly.

you can absolutely train and perform the correct way to shallow.

 

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Darkfrog said:

I'm not sure if this is the case, but to me it demonstrates that "shallowing" is the result of good swing mechanics, and not something that one can steer the club into by moving the wrists/arms in a certain way.

You absolutely can "steer the club into" by moving the wrists and arms in a certain way.

[billchao]

6 hours ago, Darkfrog said:

I'm not sure if this is the case, but to me it demonstrates that "shallowing" is the result of good swing mechanics, and not something that one can steer the club into by moving the wrists/arms in a certain way.

I don’t think that’s what the video is saying. To me it seemed like what Mike is saying is that people misunderstand the shallowing move and do too much in an effort to shallow the club or misidentify the reason they’re not on plane in the first place.

[Big Lex]

12 hours ago, billchao said:

To me it seemed like what Mike is saying is that people misunderstand the shallowing move and do too much in an effort to shallow the club or misidentify the reason they’re not on plane in the first place.

They do too much to shallow the club, but also do the wrong things to shallow the club. It's a great video for demonstrating the pitfalls of interpreting the swing in 2D, for showing how technology can help us understand the actual movement of isolated parts of the body, and for showing how sometimes we do the wrong things in the swing not because we aren't capable of doing the right things, but because we adopt incorrect concepts about the swing. 

[saevel25]

My Comments, 

They define what shallow is, 2D versus 3D and how viewing shallowing in 2D is not a good option. I agree, 2D can give misperceptions, like lag. 

They state that the club is most laid off (shallow) at the top of the swing when comparing a face on view to the down the line view. This is in relation to the position of the club relative to the position of the hands and arms. Not sure if they are measuring the same angle here. I wish they had some sort of number they could have given. 

They define two extremes of what amateurs do. The first is, steep out of the top move. The shaft points well inside the ball from A4 to A5. This happens when the golfer overly abducts their arm, or not keeping their elbow more in front of them at A4. The only way to get the back down to the ball is to send the hands out by internal rotation, think arm wrestling move, while keeping the hands up. 

The second is, arms up and club out move. This is when the arms stay elevated, and the turning of the body sends the hands out towards the ball. Which then lays off the club a ton (shaft pointing well outside the ball early in the downswing). This is because you have a big weight on the end of a small rod, and it is probably very difficult for the wrists and forearms to maintain their rotated position at A4 when you suddenly send the hands out and have that weight of the clubhead about 3' behind you and with it's own momentum.  

Finally, what good golfers do. With the arms and hands in a good position at A4. It looks like they are saying that the right arm doesn't move much in terms of internal or external rotation, and the wrists don't due much manipulation. The move is to lower the hands to the ground by bringing the right elbow towards the side of your ribcage and by also lowering the back of the hand towards the ground by letting the angle out of you right elbow. Akin to lowering of a dumbbell while exercising. 

I will say, the shallowing move feels AKWARD. It just does not feel like you should be able to hit a ball from where it feels like the hands get to when you start to isolate out the correct move from A4 to A5. 

Watching it a second time, I like the video more. At first glance, I like the the drill they are showing, isolating out that movement. It is a movement that happens in a short span of time. Being A4 to A5, when the downswing happens in a fraction of a second. I think that a golfer may need to choke up on the club to make sure that it stays in a good spot at A4, and not have the wrist get to flat. 

What I like the most about the video is the 3D model they had, deconstructing the movements and isolating out the right arm movement in shallowing the club. It really allows you to see how little the arms move. You can also reverse engineer how the arms move in the backswing. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by saevel25

[Darkfrog]

17 hours ago, saevel25 said:

you can absolutely train and perform the correct way to shallow.

 

 

16 hours ago, iacas said:

You absolutely can "steer the club into" by moving the wrists and arms in a certain way.

 

13 hours ago, billchao said:

I don’t think that’s what the video is saying. To me it seemed like what Mike is saying is that people misunderstand the shallowing move and do too much in an effort to shallow the club or misidentify the reason they’re not on plane in the first place.

You are all right - what I meant by shallowing is a result of proper swing mechanics is that there is a right way to achieve it, versus just making the club appear in a shallow position from a certain view. Bill's bold text is kind of what I was getting at, but stated much better than me.

Through my own lens, before I ever had instruction I tried a lot of things that I believed were shallowing moves. I would do mirror work and get the club in the position I thought looked right based on watching slow motion PGAT swings or random instructional content on youtube. I figured it looks shallow in the mirror so it's good, but no.

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Big Lex said:

They do too much to shallow the club, but also do the wrong things to shallow the club.

I would say it perhaps better as "often they do things that they think shallow the club, but which actually steepen it." Very few amateurs do "too much to shallow the club." Some lay it off too much, which then requires it to steepen late, but that's a different thing IMO.

1 hour ago, Big Lex said:

It's a great video for demonstrating the pitfalls of interpreting the swing in 2D, for showing how technology can help us understand the actual movement of isolated parts of the body, and for showing how sometimes we do the wrong things in the swing not because we aren't capable of doing the right things, but because we adopt incorrect concepts about the swing. 

I agree with that.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

They define what shallow is, 2D versus 3D and how viewing shallowing in 2D is not a good option. I agree, 2D can give misperceptions, like lag.

Do they? When? They tell us what it's not (shaft angle relative to the ground), and correctly point out that you can have the shaft pointing outside the ball by taking your hands way out or something.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

They state that the club is most laid off (shallow) at the top of the swing when comparing a face on view to the down the line view. This is in relation to the position of the club relative to the position of the hands and arms. Not sure if they are measuring the same angle here. I wish they had some sort of number they could have given.

That part didn't make much sense to me. Unless they just mean it's closest to horizontal?

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

I will say, the shallowing move feels AKWARD. It just does not feel like you should be able to hit a ball from where it feels like the hands get to when you start to isolate out the correct move from A4 to A5.

It will at first, then it starts to feel oh so good as you get some speed into it (only after you build up to it!).

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

What I like the most about the video is the 3D model they had, deconstructing the movements and isolating out the right arm movement in shallowing the club. It really allows you to see how little the arms move. You can also reverse engineer how the arms move in the backswing. 

That was good.

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I watched earlier today and took a few screenshots of things I wanted to comment on. Before I get into it too far…

Man would that drive me nuts. I would have to seriously consider re-releasing the video (and I probably would). This is likely one of their hallmark videos, and it has that in there. It would drive me NUTS.

This didn't make sense to me. I could get into the nitty gritty of it all, but… nobody talks about "shallow" from the Face-On angle unless they're talking about AoA. And that's entirely different.

I use that all the time: the idea that the non-professional athlete is often trying to make themselves do MORE WORK than the professional athletes. Ams often try to do more work (and succeed at doing more work) than PGA Tour players.

Glad they dispelled the myth of going external in the downswing.

:cough: ahem:

On 5/9/2020 at 8:01 AM, Phil McGleno said:

Trail elbow does not actually go external with many pros at all. Most pros the elbow slightly trails trails the rear hip on the downswing and pros tend to have some trail shoulder retraction early in the transition. By P4.5 pros will not have the forearm 'in front' or more vertical than the torso tilt.

Props to @Phil McGleno (might've been the first to type it here).

Love this as a demonstration of what I keep saying to people: Body = Around, Arms = Up/Down. From here the arms elevate up the body (losing some depth, yes, definitely, because you don't abduct as much as you lose, or hopefully you don't).

Very good way to start doing it. With my juniors and other players I've tended to skip to two-handed Phase 2, but I think I'm going to start going with just one-handed stuff. I might still skip to Phase 2, but if someone is having trouble getting it… I'll go standing up.

Many of my Junior Elite Players got started on a "second piece" this past weekend, and yesterday or the day before I wrote up some very quick notes "for me" so that I could quickly recall at a glance what they were doing. I know they'll see the notes, so I don't totally write them in obscure words, but for a few…

Those will look pretty familiar. I find telling people to lower (by widening, not pulling down) the hands toward their right pocket works pretty well as a feel.

[Big Lex]

Thanks everyone for excellent comments!  

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

It looks like they are saying that the right arm doesn't move much in terms of internal or external rotation, and the wrists don't due much manipulation. The move is to lower the hands to the ground by bringing the right elbow towards the side of your ribcage and by also lowering the back of the hand towards the ground by letting the angle out of you right elbow. Akin to lowering of a dumbbell while exercising. 

The ARM doesn't, but the forearm DOES. They don't mention it often, but the wrist (forearm) does have a movement in the shallowing. It's very minimal - I can't remember how many degrees they said it is - but as the arm lowers, the elbow extends, and the forearm supinates (well....not sure the correct terminology, whether the wrist or hand "supinates" and maybe the forearm "externally rotates," but whatever terminology, there is a little wrist/forearm movement in the shallowing). A LITTLE. 

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

I will say, the shallowing move feels AKWARD. It just does not feel like you should be able to hit a ball from where it feels like the hands get to when you start to isolate out the correct move from A4 to A5. 

I had the same experience, and the longer the club, the weirder it feels, to me. To me, it feels like I put the club head somewhere where it ain't never going to get back to the ball, some place where I can't swing it from. But as Erik said, oh boy when you DO manage to do this, you find it's actually easier to hit the ball and the club head is moving faster. Right now, I can't do it reliably at full speed in a swing. I can do it at probably 60% I would guess. I plan to practice this alot and try to incorporate it into my swing. 

 

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

Man would that drive me nuts.

Agree. I wish I could hack the video and correct it. It's like seeing a crooked painting on the wall in someone's house and just itching to fix it. 🙂

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Big Lex

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

The ARM doesn't, but the forearm DOES.

He said "in terms of internal rotation."

17 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

I had the same experience, and the longer the club, the weirder it feels, to me. To me, it feels like I put the club head somewhere where it ain't never going to get back to the ball, some place where I can't swing it from. But as Erik said, oh boy when you DO manage to do this, you find it's actually easier to hit the ball and the club head is moving faster. Right now, I can't do it reliably at full speed in a swing. I can do it at probably 60% I would guess. I plan to practice this alot and try to incorporate it into my swing.

We hit the ball on the trail side of our bodies. I have an IG/Tweet coming out about this later tonight.

The rotation brings that trail side so it's hitting the ball.

[iacas]

Joe Mayo posted this graph recently on Instagram:

Joseph Mayo (@josephmayogolf) • Instagram photo

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Joseph Mayo shared a post on Instagram: "Here’s a graph of the average of 85 ELITE golfer’s trail shoulder motion in the golf swing. This was lab measured using research grade equipment. The golfers start out...

Here is the graph itself:

As I see it, this can be a number of things.

First, I blew the image up to a size where the difference, the gap, between 20 and 40° was 952 pixels. That's 47.6 pixels per degree. The distance between the peak and the valley near the second "ER" is… 216 pixels, so we're talking about 4.5° of external rotation.

That amount is not negligible, but it's close. It's also not negative, so I wonder if the disagreement (not that they've directly quoted each other, of course) is whether one is saying "moving" toward external rotation (as this graph is) or "is externally rotated" (i.e. past 0°).

Or is the disagreement simply in how things are measured? GEARS uses 34 markers on the body, including one at the elbow, shoulder, and wrist. It's really, really good. But, maybe for this, it's not be as perfect (or maybe it's better) as whatever created the graph Joe cited.

FWIW the video says "none of those five players or any of the other Tour winners we have data on externally rotate their trail shoulders in the downswing. We've yet to find a single one who does." They go on to say it's "not something we recommend."

So finally, how is Mike Granato defining "in the downswing"?

• None of the lines in Joe's graph show the player going more external (absolute) than their most external (absolute) point in the backswing.
• None of the lines in Joe's graph end the downswing (BI) more external (absolute) than at the top of the backswing (TB).

Does the supination and widening of the trail elbow slightly externally rotate the trail shoulder, or even the X-Factor stretch or the shoulder compressing into the hands ever so slightly?

[Big Lex]

Just so I understand his nomenclature, the graph, etc....

When the line is "downhill," there is external rotation of the arm at the shoulder joint. 

When it's uphill, internal rotation. 

So from the start of the backswing to about "mid" backswing (left arm horizontal?), the arm rotates externally at the shoulder.

From there to the top of the backswing, it rotates internally.

From the top through the early downswing (ED and EDA?), there is a small amount of external rotation. 

From there on in, it's alot of internal rotation. 

Correct? 

Regarding measurement, do you know how Joseph Mayo is measuring shoulder rotation? 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Big Lex