'Do Not Enter' GUR With Water Hazard Past Markers

[Seeking70s]

Encountered an interesting situation and not a rules expert so looking for help - playing in my league last week I hit a shot that sliced to the right, offline, and entered a roped off area near the green.

After recent repairs to the course, these  areas are roped off with signs that instruct you not to enter (for environmental concerns) and to take a free drop.

However, on this hole there is also a water hazard which is maybe 20 yards further right of the ropes.

I did not see where my ball ultimately came to rest, only that it bounced into the roped off area - it may have gone into the water hazard or it may have come to rest in the free drop area.

Do I have to take a penalty stroke, is this ruled a lost ball, do I get a free drop at the ropes, or is there some other answer here?

[Elmer]

7 minutes ago, Seeking70s said:

After recent repairs to the course, these  areas are roped off with signs that instruct you not to enter (for environmental concerns) and to take a free drop.

However, on this hole there is also a water hazard which is maybe 20 yards further right of the ropes.

Is the water hazard part of the ground under repair (do not enter area) or was the hazard there before the do not enter signs ?

To me, and I am no expert on the rules, but if you can not clearly identify your ball as being in the ground under repair/free drop area, it is lost. 

[Seeking70s]

10 minutes ago, Elmer said:

Is the water hazard part of the ground under repair (do not enter area) or was the hazard there before the do not enter signs ?

To me, and I am no expert on the rules, but if you can not clearly identify your ball as being in the ground under repair/free drop area, it is lost. 

The water hazard precedes the do not enter signs, but there is no way to get near the water hazard without entering the “do not enter” area.

The repairs were to the shoreline of a creek (which is the water hazard in question) and the entire area surrounding the creek on every hole is marked as DNE as they are trying to grow back the dead grass in those areas. 

[billchao]

27 minutes ago, Seeking70s said:

Encountered an interesting situation and not a rules expert so looking for help - playing in my league last week I hit a shot that sliced to the right, offline, and entered a roped off area near the green.

After recent repairs to the course, these  areas are roped off with signs that instruct you not to enter (for environmental concerns) and to take a free drop.

However, on this hole there is also a water hazard which is maybe 20 yards further right of the ropes.

I did not see where my ball ultimately came to rest, only that it bounced into the roped off area - it may have gone into the water hazard or it may have come to rest in the free drop area.

Do I have to take a penalty stroke, is this ruled a lost ball, do I get a free drop at the ropes, or is there some other answer here?

You have to be virtually certain that the ball came to rest in GUR to be entitled to free relief. It sounds to me like you were neither certain that it was in GUR nor that it was in the penalty area, therefore it can only be a lost ball.

[Seeking70s]

8 minutes ago, billchao said:

You have to be virtually certain that the ball came to rest in GUR to be entitled to free relief. It sounds to me like you were neither certain that it was in GUR nor that it was in the penalty area, therefore it can only be a lost ball.

Fair enough. I am certain that it was in one of the two, but not sure which, was too far away to see.

It’s unfortunate that I am forced to take a penalty worse than either outcome, but that is how the rules go sometimes. Rub of the green and all that.

[Big C]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

You have to be virtually certain that the ball came to rest in GUR to be entitled to free relief. It sounds to me like you were neither certain that it was in GUR nor that it was in the penalty area, therefore it can only be a lost ball.

I disagree with this.  There is no logical basis for playing it as lost ball if you know it is in the roped off area. 

My gut tells me that the GUR supersedes all areas inside the ropes, including water hazards. Therefore the OP is entitled to free drop. 

If you cannot enter the area to search, then the only requirement is that you be virtually certain the ball came to rest in the roped off area. To play it as a lost ball would be non sensical.

[saevel25]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

You have to be virtually certain that the ball came to rest in GUR to be entitled to free relief. It sounds to me like you were neither certain that it was in GUR nor that it was in the penalty area, therefore it can only be a lost ball.

If you say it cross the GUR boundary. If the area bounds up against the water hazard. If the GUR area is short grass where you could see a ball, I say it is v certain it carried to the hazard. If the GUR is tall grass you can’t see and you can’t enter. I think seeing it cross the boundary is enough to say it’s in that area. 

[billchao]

1 hour ago, Big C said:

I disagree with this.  There is no logical basis for playing it as lost ball if you know it is in the roped off area. 

My gut tells me that the GUR supersedes all areas inside the ropes, including water hazards. Therefore the OP is entitled to free drop. 

If you cannot enter the area to search, then the only requirement is that you be virtually certain the ball came to rest in the roped off area. To play it as a lost ball would be non sensical.

16.2. You are allowed free relief when the ball is inside abnormal course conditions except in a penalty area.

And since the OP is not virtually certain that the ball is in one or the other, it’s lost.

42 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

If you say it cross the GUR boundary. If the area bounds up against the water hazard. If the GUR area is short grass where you could see a ball, I say it is v certain it carried to the hazard. If the GUR is tall grass you can’t see and you can’t enter. I think seeing it cross the boundary is enough to say it’s in that area. 

Hard to say from here. All I know is that @Seeking70s questioned the resting place of the ball enough to ask about it here so I’d say that doesn’t qualify as virtual certainty.

If he knew that the ball entered the penalty area then the relief options would be different. In that case I believe it would be one stroke and lateral relief, likely in the GUR, from which he would get a subsequent free relief out of.

[Seeking70s]

I have attached a photo of the green and area in question from a Google Earth snapshot.

The blue line represents the approximate position of the GUR stakes and ropes (quite close to the edge of the green). The rear of the GUR is not marked in any way so I am not really sure where it would "end." Essentially a 10+ yard perimeter of GUR stakes surround the entire creek which runs through many holes on this course (see 2nd screenshot).

EDIT: The “7” should be an 8 in that 2nd screenshot.

The creek is now a bit narrower than in the Google Earth pic due to the repairs and a dry summer - I marked my best estimate of where the hazard would be staked with the red line.

White line is the line I saw my ball enter on - again no clue where it went to rest. I had trees obscuring some of my vision and the area it bounced into slopes towards the creek.

I think it is a lost ball per what Bill and iacas have outlined in the rules. 

Appreciate the assistance as given the layout this is fairly likely to come up for myself or others in future league rounds.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Seeking70s

[billchao]

53 minutes ago, Seeking70s said:

I have attached a photo of the green and area in question from a Google Earth snapshot.

The blue line represents the approximate position of the GUR stakes and ropes (quite close to the edge of the green). The rear of the GUR is not marked in any way so I am not really sure where it would "end." Essentially a 10+ yard perimeter of GUR stakes surround the entire creek which runs through many holes on this course (see 2nd screenshot).

EDIT: The “7” should be an 8 in that 2nd screenshot.

The creek is now a bit narrower than in the Google Earth pic due to the repairs and a dry summer - I marked my best estimate of where the hazard would be staked with the red line.

White line is the line I saw my ball enter on - again no clue where it went to rest. I had trees obscuring some of my vision and the area it bounced into slopes towards the creek.

I think it is a lost ball per what Bill and iacas have outlined in the rules. 

Appreciate the assistance as given the layout this is fairly likely to come up for myself or others in future league rounds.

If the GUR is that close to the penalty area and it slopes down into the creek anyway, I’d say you could have been virtually certain your ball ended up in it. And I’m assuming by your description that the course is trying to regrow the grass there that it’s not waist high fescue or anything but rather patchy and bare in spots.

If that’s the case then I think this is the correct procedure:

3 hours ago, billchao said:

it would be one stroke and lateral relief, likely in the GUR, from which he would get a subsequent free relief out of.

So essentially you get a lateral drop from the GUR. It’s just not a free one.

[DaveP043]

I think Clarification 17.1a/1 applies here.

Quote

17.1a/1 – Ball Lost in Either Penalty Area or Abnormal Course Condition Adjacent to Penalty Area
If a player’s ball is not found in an area where there is a penalty area and an adjacent abnormal course condition, the player must use reasonable judgment (Rule 1.3b(2)) when determining the location of the ball. If, after applying reasonable judgment, it is known or virtually certain that the ball has come to rest in one of those areas but both are equally likely, the player must take penalty relief under Rule 17.

If the ball is Known or Virtually Certain to be in one of the two areas, the PA or the GUR, the player must use reasonable judgement.  If the player doesn't have KVC that the ball is in the ACC (here the GUR/No Entry), then he must take Penalty Area relief.  The ball is NOT Lost in this situation.  In essence, the player takes the more severe of the two possible outcomes, but doesn't have to take the MOST severe possibility, that of a Lost Ball.  To me this Rule is worded poorly, but the USGA has confirmed this interpretation on their Facebook Rules Group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2633662133356133/search/?q=17.1a%2F1

 

[Big C]

 

7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think Clarification 17.1a/1 applies here.

If the ball is Known or Virtually Certain to be in one of the two areas, the PA or the GUR, the player must use reasonable judgement.  If the player doesn't have KVC that the ball is in the ACC (here the GUR/No Entry), then he must take Penalty Area relief.  The ball is NOT Lost in this situation.  In essence, the player takes the more severe of the two possible outcomes, but doesn't have to take the MOST severe possibility, that of a Lost Ball.  To me this Rule is worded poorly, but the USGA has confirmed this interpretation on their Facebook Rules Group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2633662133356133/search/?q=17.1a%2F1

 

Dave thanks for the clarification and that makes sense to me. I couldn't imagine a scenario where you knew you the outcome was either a free drop or a 1 stroke penalty - but because you were prohibited from searching to ascertain, you had to take a lost ball. 

Even when the rules of golf seem a bit counter-intuitive, there is usually a sound logical basis if you think them through. As mentioned earlier, a lost ball penalty just seemed unreasonable and non-sensical given the scenario outlined.

[DaveP043]

11 minutes ago, Big C said:

 

Dave thanks for the clarification and that makes sense to me. I couldn't imagine a scenario where you knew you the outcome was either a free drop or a 1 stroke penalty - but because you were prohibited from searching to ascertain, you had to take a lost ball. 

Even when the rules of golf seem a bit counter-intuitive, there is usually a sound logical basis if you think them through. As mentioned earlier, a lost ball penalty just seemed unreasonable and non-sensical given the scenario outlined.

Sorry it took so long, but I had men's league golf Tuesday afternoon, and have been a Rules Official for the last two days at a Junior tournament here.  

[StuM]

On 6/20/2023 at 10:23 PM, Seeking70s said:

I have attached a photo of the green and area in question from a Google Earth snapshot.

The blue line represents the approximate position of the GUR stakes and ropes (quite close to the edge of the green). The rear of the GUR is not marked in any way so I am not really sure where it would "end." Essentially a 10+ yard perimeter of GUR stakes surround the entire creek which runs through many holes on this course (see 2nd screenshot).

EDIT: The “7” should be an 8 in that 2nd screenshot.

The creek is now a bit narrower than in the Google Earth pic due to the repairs and a dry summer - I marked my best estimate of where the hazard would be staked with the red line.

White line is the line I saw my ball enter on - again no clue where it went to rest. I had trees obscuring some of my vision and the area it bounced into slopes towards the creek.

I think it is a lost ball per what Bill and iacas have outlined in the rules. 

Appreciate the assistance as given the layout this is fairly likely to come up for myself or others in future league rounds.

I get the concept of "Lost" vs "Virturally in GUR" but looking at this the GUR extends from outside the hazard on one side to outside the hazard on the other preventing any chance of playing from the hazard.  If he could have gotten to his ball and is was inside the PA but he was able to get a club on it he could have played with no penalty.  The way the marked GUR seems to engolf the entire hazard preventing any chance at all even if the ball was in the PA and was playable.  Is there a rule that says GUR cannot encompase a PA?

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, StuM said:

Is there a rule that says GUR cannot encompase a PA?

No.

There are also PAs that are "no entry" and "no play zones."

[billchao]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I think Clarification 17.1a/1 applies here.

I barely know the all rules, how am I supposed know the clarifications, too? 😉

Seriously though, thanks for posting. I had a hard time disagreeing with the people who said S&D seemed too penal in this situation, but could not find a ruling that said otherwise.

[DaveP043]

18 hours ago, Big C said:

I couldn't imagine a scenario where you knew you the outcome was either a free drop or a 1 stroke penalty - but because you were prohibited from searching to ascertain, you had to take a lost ball. 

The Clarification applies to the OPs situation, but also to a broader range of situations.  Perhaps the GUR is unmowed grass, and the ball isn't found after 3 minutes searching, but the player has KVC its either in the GUR or in the PA.  Perhaps the Abnormal Course Condition (ACC) is Temporary Water outside the limits of the PA, and the ball can't be found because the Temporary Water is so deep.  The Clarification kind of clears up a gray area between 16.1e (Ball not found but in an ACC), 17.1 (Ball in PA), and 18.2 (Lost Ball).