Is This Ethical?

[boil3rmak3r]

Stupid debate that I will set a poll up for.

The other day, I bought fiery chicken nuggets at Burger King.  I don’t like any of the BK sauces, so I then drove next door to McDonald’s, went inside, and said that I have nuggets but no sauce.  They gave me two packets of spicy mustard sauce (which is my favorite).

My wife said I was unethical doing that.  I debated her.  At McD’s, I never said I bought THEIR nuggets or that they shorted me sauce.  I simply said I HAD nuggets and needed sauce.  If they simply ASSUMED they shorted me and did not ask any clarifying questions, who am I to argue getting the sauces for free?

What say you?

[SEMI_Duffer]

  On 7/16/2023 at 5:59 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

At McD’s, I never said I bought THEIR nuggets or that they shorted me sauce.  I simply said I HAD nuggets and needed sauce.

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Disingenuous argument, IMO.  By the way you phased the request they reasonably assumed you meant you had their nuggets. One might be excused for suspecting you clearly left that part out in hopes they'd make precisely that assumption.

Now, if you'd walked in, asked "Can I have some...?" without saying why, and they just handed it over, you'd have a valid argument.  In that case you wouldn't be trying to lead them to believe anything other than you wanted a couple of packs of their sauce.

Edited July 16, 2023 by SEMI_Duffer

[saevel25]

Unethical. Part of the cost of buying food at McDonald's is that you are supporting their business to provide those sauces. Just because they give you a 2-3 sauces with your meal, does not mean they are free for them, or you. They are included in the price of the food. 

Basically, you stole from McDonald's. You didn't have the courtesy to provide them any business, and just deceived them in giving you free sauces. 

What you should do is, go to the grocery store and buy a bottle of sauce you like. No need to lie to McDonald's to get free sauces. 

[boil3rmak3r]

  On 7/16/2023 at 6:12 PM, saevel25 said:

Unethical. Part of the cost of buying food at McDonald's is that you are supporting their business to provide those sauces. Just because they give you a 2-3 sauces with your meal, does not mean they are free for them, or you. They are included in the price of the food. 

Basically, you stole from McDonald's. You didn't have the courtesy to provide them any business, and just deceived them in giving you free sauces. 

What you should do is, go to the grocery store and buy a bottle of sauce you like. No need to lie to McDonald's to get free sauces. 

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I literally didn’t go in there to “steal” from them.  The employee handed me two packets and waved on the person behind me to take their order.

If I lose this poll (I.e. voted unethical) I will go to the McD’s and give them the $.54.

Not for nothing, but I have a wife and 3 girls.  A $60 trip to McD’s is not uncommon once a week.

[iacas]

  On 7/16/2023 at 6:27 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

I literally didn’t go in there to “steal” from them.

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Yes you did.

  On 7/16/2023 at 5:59 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

I then drove next door to McDonald’s, went inside, and said

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Theft. Of a very small scale from a very large company, but still theft.

[dennyjones]

A while back our local Mc Donald's was charging for extra sauces.   They have a cost and I'm sure it's not much but it is not ethical to decieve the company.  It's a good opportunity to teach the girls a life lesson.  

Make the trip and take the girls with you.  Years later they will talk about your integrity. 

[saevel25]

  On 7/16/2023 at 6:27 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

I literally didn’t go in there to “steal” from them.  The employee handed me two packets and waved on the person behind me to take their order.

 

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So, if I walk up to a person and lie by saying, "Hey, I lost my wallet and need gas, can I get $20 bucks?" That wouldn't be stealing?

Everything in a business costs a business money. Just because it doesn't show up itemized on your bill, doesn't mean it isn't be considered as part of your bill. To go into a business, and to lie to them to get something of value from the business for free, is stealing. 

[boil3rmak3r]

  On 7/16/2023 at 6:39 PM, saevel25 said:

So, if I walk up to a person and lie by saying, "Hey, I lost my wallet and need gas, can I get $20 bucks?" That wouldn't be stealing?

Everything in a business costs a business money. Just because it doesn't show up itemized on your bill, doesn't mean it isn't be considered as part of your bill. To go into a business, and to lie to them to get something of value from the business for free, is stealing. 

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Your first question is an obvious no.  You’d be a panhandler and anyone that gives you money is doing it without knowing you drive a Mercedes and live in a modest house (not necessarily you, but many panhandlers). 
 

Here’s the definition of stealing:

1. the action or offense of taking another person's property without permission or legal right and without intending to return it; theft.

   "they argue that copying licensed software is a form of stealing”

    

    

I own a business as well.  I understand how expenses work.  I appreciate you trying to educate me on that, though.

Gee, I never would have thought the backlash would be so vitriol.

Feel free to delete this topic.

[SEMI_Duffer]

  On 7/16/2023 at 6:55 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

I own a business as well.  I understand how expenses work.

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All the worse, then, IMO. You, more than most, should appreciate the principles involved.

  On 7/16/2023 at 6:55 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

Gee, I never would have thought the backlash would be so vitriol.

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I haven't seen any vitriol.  I've seen people disagree with you and explain the bases of their disagreements.

  On 7/16/2023 at 6:55 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

Feel free to delete this topic.

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Because...?

[DaveP043]

my opinion, you were intentionally vague and deceptive, in order to get something for free.  I've voted, you can use what ethical label you want.

[boil3rmak3r]

  On 7/16/2023 at 7:08 PM, SEMI_Duffer said:

All the worse, then, IMO. You, more than most, should appreciate the principles involved.

I haven't seen any vitriol.  I've seen people disagree with you and explain the bases of their disagreements.

Because...?

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I do appreciate the principles involved.

Two people disagree, call me a thief, and accuse me of stealing.  I’ve never stole a thing in my life.  I gave you the definition of stealing (which, BTW is the definition of theft), but you can’t even recognize that what happened in my situation is not that.  Hell you thought it would be “stealing” if you got $20 from someone at a gas station.  iacas won’t recognize he was uneducated on that topic, either.

So now, no member dare say anything different, so who cares.
 

 

[dennyjones]

If you had gone to McDonald's and given them enough information to make an informed decision, they would have charged you for the sauces.    I don't understand why it should be any different in your choice.    Obviously, you feel guilty or you wouldn't have brought it up to strangers on the internet in a golf forum.

[billchao]

I left my sand wedge on a course last week so I went into the pro shop of a different one and told them I lost my sand wedge. They gave me one from the lost and found. It’s not my fault they assumed I left it at their course. Was this unethical?

The only ethical way to get free sauce from McDonald’s without making a purchase from them is if you gave them all the information and they chose to give you the sauce anyway.

[saevel25]

Imagine going into McDonald's and saying, "Hey, I bought these nuggets over at Burger King next door. Can I get some of your sauces for them?" 

Obviously, that sounds absurd to do. So, to sound less absurd, a person would obviously lie (mislead). I has multiple benefits. First, higher chance of getting the sauces. Second, It allows the person to validate their action because the person behind the counter didn't figure out what was going on. 

There is no way a person can argue they were doing an ethical thing. If there was a scale of ethical acts. And it ranged from -10 (highly unethical) to +10 (ethical). This would be a negative value. It wouldn't be a -10. 

[boil3rmak3r]

Ok.  I am out.  The next time I am there, I will give them $.54 and not take advantage of them not asking me any questions in the future (this is the only time I’ve ever done this).

I would appreciate an apology for being called a thief and accused of stealing.

I mean, come on iacas, you say golf is not golf if not played by the definition of the rules.  This situation is not theft based on the definition.  I’ll bet your ego will not allow you to apologize to me today for calling me a thief.

[SEMI_Duffer]

  On 7/16/2023 at 7:30 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

I do appreciate the principles involved.

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Then I fail to understand why you even asked the question in the first place.

  On 7/16/2023 at 7:30 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

I gave you the definition of stealing (which, BTW is the definition of theft), but you can’t even recognize that what happened in my situation is not that.  Hell you thought it would be “stealing” if you got $20 from someone at a gas station.

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None of the above is true wrt to me, personally.

  On 7/16/2023 at 7:30 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

So now, no member dare say anything different, so who cares.

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I've disagreed with @iacas in the past.  It's not outside the realm of possibility I will again in the future. IME he doesn't have a problem with honest disagreement as long as one argues in good faith, and does so respectfully.

[iacas]

  On 7/16/2023 at 6:55 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

Here’s the definition of stealing:

1. the action or offense of taking another person's property without permission or legal right and without intending to return it; theft. 

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You didn’t have a right to it. You deceived them into giving it to you. It’s theft.

Like I said it’s a small thing but it’s still stealing/theft. If I take a penny from the wishing well it’s still theft even if it’s a penny.

You asked for the opinions of others, then get pissed when people share them? There’s been no vitriol. None.

You posted because you knew it was wrong, I think. Were you hoping others would tell you that you did nothing wrong?

  On 7/16/2023 at 7:52 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

This situation is not theft based on the definition.

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Except it is.

I’ll await your apology for the “vitriol” comment.

🙂

  On 7/16/2023 at 7:52 PM, boil3rmak3r said:

I’ll bet your ego will not allow you to apologize to me today for calling me a thief.

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Truly has nothing to do with this. If you walked into McD and stocked up on napkins and straws just sitting out, that’s theft too. Really low grade but still.

[boil3rmak3r]

  On 7/16/2023 at 7:55 PM, iacas said:

You didn’t have a right to it. You deceived them into giving it to you. It’s theft.

Like I said it’s a small thing but it’s still stealing/theft. If I take a penny from the wishing well it’s still theft even if it’s a penny.

You asked for the opinions of others, then get pissed when people share them? There’s been no vitriol. None.

You posted because you knew it was wrong, I think. Were you hoping others would tell you that you did nothing wrong?

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It’s all good, but you are a hypocrite.  If someone plays against the rules of golf, in your opinion, they are playing something other than golf.

On real world topics, YOU define what theft is and you stand behind it, no matter what the true definition is.

I knew you would not retract calling me a thief.

I get it.  You run this place.