Been Wondering About This Ruling for Years

[ChetlovesMer]

Okay, so like 5-6 years ago a buddy of mine and I are playing golf in Nevada. Not a tournament, but we're betting 20 bucks a side. I don't think this actually affected the outcome but I'm curious how you all would have ruled this. 

We are playing a hole in which on one side of the concrete cart path is the grass on the other side is rocky, desert. My buddy hits his tee shot which comes to rest on the other side of the cart path under a prickly ugly bush. He's right handed but he turns his 7-iron upside down and addresses the ball left handed, with the club upside-down. Then he says "I get relief because I'm standing on the cart path." 

"Okay" I say.  

Then he drops the ball (from the shoulder as this is pre-2019) on the "good" side of the cart path within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole. 

I believe he should have had to hit from the crappy side of the cart path, by dropping the ball within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole. 

My contention is the nearest point of complete relief is in the desert. His contention is as long as it's within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole he can drop anywhere he wants. Who's right? 

Okay, now the kicker. He declares his ball in play. Now admittedly it is less than 2 club lengths from where it came to rest and isn't any closer to the hole. Then he addresses his ball (7 iron again) right handed this time and declares he gets relief again, because he's standing on the cart path. ... Which he is. 

He drops again, and now he's on the fairway, not even in the rough. 

So, with two drops and no stokes he's moved from under a bush in the desert, to the rough, to the fairway. 

Here's a picture which may help.

 

So he hits his 7 iron on the green. No penalty. I guess he may be right, but it's always felt shady and we've poked fun at each other over this incident for years now. 

What do you all think? 

[iacas]

Your NPR (nearest point of relief) is where it would be to play that shot. Looks like that's on the bush-side of the cart path. You're then free to re-assess and take further relief if you want. Or an unplayable, etc.

Looks like he should have dropped in the bush, or maybe slightly behind it if that is within the relief area.

Oh, and you have to take complete relief.

[Rulesman]

13 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

He's right handed but he turns his 7-iron upside down and addresses the ball left handed, with the club upside-down. Then he says "I get relief because I'm standing on the cart path." 

 

 

No Relief When Clearly Unreasonable to Play Ball. There is no relief under Rule 16.1:

• When playing the ball as it lies would be clearly unreasonable because of something from which the player is not allowed to take free relief (such as when a player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush), or 

• When interference exists only because a player chooses a club, type of stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the circumstances.

Either/both of the above would seem to apply

[ChetlovesMer]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

Oh, and you have to take complete relief.

This was my contention.

4 hours ago, Rulesman said:

• When interference exists only because a player chooses a club, type of stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the circumstances.

This of course has come up over the years of debate. His contention is that it was reasonable under the circumstances. 

[mdl]

I agree that if a lefty swing was reasonable, then that part of the situation is fine. As in, if the ball were pretty close to the bush so that a right handed swing was blocked but far enough away that he had a clear strike at the ball left handed, then I think that's a fair thing to do. But then, as Erik said, assuming that the cart path in question is wide enough to accommodate driving a standard golf cart on it, then NPR is certainly on the desert side of the path. Anyone know what the penalty is for taking an illegal drop in this way (not at the NPR)?

One question I have, @iacas said the NPR was probably in the bush. Do you not have to be able to take a reasonable shot from a spot for it to count as a relief point? Assuming the NPR is in the bush, would he be allowed to determine NPR given the lefty swing but then actually drop the ball behind and towards the cart path from the NPR to give himself a right handed shot that wasn't blocked by the bush? Here he would be determining NPR given the proposed lefty shot, but then taking the actual drop in a place where he wouldn't get full relief for the lefty shot. Is that legal.

To be more extreme, what if the OB line were 18 inches into the desert from this cart path. If you take relief for a lefty swing, is the NPR OB, since your feet fit in bounds on the desert side of the cart path? Or does OB not count as a relief point so there you'd get to drop on the grass side of the path. Assuming that's true, is it then legal to do what the OP's friend did, which is drop in the grass to get relief from a lefty swing, then set up for a righty swing and take relief again into the fairway?

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, mdl said:

Do you not have to be able to take a reasonable shot from a spot for it to count as a relief point?

Simply put, no, you get relief from the cart path, but there's no guarantee of a reasonable swing, no relief from tall grass or trees or anything else.  To answer a later question, if a stance to that left side of the path, and a left handed swing, means the ball is OB, or in another area of the course like a Bunker or Penalty Area, that's not the Nearest Point of Complete Relief.

[DaveP043]

13 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Simply put, no, you get relief from the cart path, but there's no guarantee of a reasonable swing, no relief from tall grass or trees or anything else.  To answer a later question, if a stance to that left side of the path, and a left handed swing, means the ball is OB, or in another area of the course like a Bunker or Penalty Area, that's not the Nearest Point of Complete Relief.

I'm quoting myself, only because I want to link up to the relevant information from the Rules.  These are the current rules, but I don't think the 2016 version differed very much.  First is Rule 16.1, for relief form Abnormal Course Conditions.  A cart path is an Immoveable Obstruction, one of the four ACCs.   Others have quoted the provision that you can't take relief for an unreasonable stance or type of swing, it sounds like relief was appropriate in this case.  The Reference Point is the Nearest Point of Complete Relief, and a diagram is provided.  So we refer to the Definition of the Nearest Point of Complete Relief.  The NPCR allows relief from the cart path, for the type of swing the Player would have made if the cart path had not been there.  Specifically, the Definition says:

"The nearest point of complete relief relates solely to the particular condition from which relief is being taken and may be in a location where there is interference by something else"

So there might be interference from a tree or bush, a clear swing isn't guaranteed.  I'll go back to Clarification 16.1/1, which says that Relief from an ACC might result in better conditions, or worse conditions.  However, the NPCR for a ball in the General Area MUST be in the General Area (Rule 16.1b), its not in a Bunker of a Penalty Area.  That's not to say you might not have to stand in a Bunker or Penalty Area, just that the Ball won't be in it.

You can find all of these on the Rules of Golf app on your phone, or on the USGA's webpage:

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#section=rules&itemNum=19&subItemNum=1

[ChetlovesMer]

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

You can find all of these on the Rules of Golf app on your phone, or on the USGA's webpage:

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#section=rules&itemNum=19&subItemNum=1

It's so funny. We actually looked it up years ago and that only lead to more debate. Each of us convinced we were correct. 

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

It's so funny. We actually looked it up years ago and that only lead to more debate. Each of us convinced we were correct. 

Presumably you had a rule book with you, I don't remember a phone app being available back then.  Clearly someone was wrong.

On 1/4/2025 at 2:39 PM, ChetlovesMer said:

My contention is the nearest point of complete relief is in the desert. His contention is as long as it's within 2 club lengths no closer to the hole he can drop anywhere he wants. Who's right? 

Here's what the 2016-2018 rules said, per www.ruleshistory.com

 

Quote

a player may take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction as follows:
(i) Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. 

Clearly he was wrong, and it seems tat you were right, if he wanted FREE relief from the path.  He certainly COULD take Unplayable Ball relief, for 1 Penalty Stroke, and drop within 2 clublengths, which apparently is what he did.   

 

On 1/4/2025 at 2:39 PM, ChetlovesMer said:

Okay, now the kicker. He declares his ball in play. Now admittedly it is less than 2 club lengths from where it came to rest and isn't any closer to the hole. Then he addresses his ball (7 iron again) right handed this time and declares he gets relief again, because he's standing on the cart path. ... Which he is. 

At this point, he has a new situation, and he certainly CAN take free relief from the cart path in this situation, and that relief certainly could put him in the fairway.  

[ChetlovesMer]

14 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Presumably you had a rule book with you, I don't remember a phone app being available back then.  Clearly someone was wrong.

Here's what the 2016-2018 rules said, per www.ruleshistory.com

 

Clearly he was wrong, and it seems tat you were right, if he wanted FREE relief from the path.  He certainly COULD take Unplayable Ball relief, for 1 Penalty Stroke, and drop within 2 clublengths, which apparently is what he did.   

 

At this point, he has a new situation, and he certainly CAN take free relief from the cart path in this situation, and that relief certainly could put him in the fairway.  

I can't wait to tell him that @DaveP043 is on my side! 👍🤣👍

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I can't wait to tell him that @DaveP043 is on my side! 👍🤣👍

If it helps, tell him a USGA Expert rules official is on your side.  More important, ask HIM to find a rule that mentions 2 clublengths and FREE relief in the same rule.  He won't find it.  The bit I quoted makes it pretty clear to me.