Match play, calling out a penalty

[blue3715]

The rules in match play are quite clear, once a player, or his caddie, is aware of a penalty and does not bring it up.. once the player (who had the penalty) tees off the next hole it's too late.

Case:
Match play, 8th hole. I was in the front of a long bunker and was lying two. Opponent was on the green lying three. My 2nd shot was poor and I was a bit steamed. I was down 1 at that point.

I hit my 3rd shot which went about 10 yards to the top of the bunker (grassy face) and I reverse swung in disgust and hit the sand with my club. I never thought about what I did.. having "blown the hole".

I watched as the ball trickled back down into the bunker. I walked the 10 yds or so to the ball and hit my 4th shot onto the green. The opponent 2 putted and and I miraculously sunk the 20 footer to tie the hole with a 5.

After the 9th hole, in the halfway house.. my opponent said to me.. "I have a theoretical question.. if you are in the bunker and you hit the sand again after your swing and the ball is still in the bunker.. isn't that a penalty?". I instantly replayed what I did on #8 and said "I did that, didn't I...", he said "yes". We discussed it and agreed that I had a penalty and lost the hole.

Fast fwd to the 16th tee, I'm down 2. Before we tee off the pro comes rolling over in his golf cart and asks what happened on #8.. I guess someone in the halfway house was on the way back to the pro shop and had asked the pro about it.

He asked my opponent when he was told about the penalty.. he said his caddy told him on the 9th fwy. He then asked the caddy when he knew of my infraction. The caddy said he knew it immediately, but didn't tell his player about it until the 9th.

The pro said since the "team" knew of the penalty and waited until I drove the 9th tee, it was too late.. I was now just 1 down. I went on to win the match.

I felt bad about the penalty and offered to the pro to give the other guy the win, but he said no.. "people should know the rules.. the caddy should have spoken up".

=====
Key point is, you must get a ruling before continuing.. you cannot agree to disagree and play on, getting a ruling later on. If you do not agree on the penalty before the next tee off, there is no penalty.

[Craig Mac]

see rule 2-5 page 31 http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/pdf/2008ROG.pdf

[snowyowl]

Blue3715

Your post is wrong in several regards.

I hit my 3rd shot which went about 10 yards to the top of the bunker (grassy face) and I reverse swung in disgust and hit the sand with my club. I never thought about what I did.. having "blown the hole".

I watched as the ball trickled back down into the bunker.

As I read it, when you hit the sand, the ball was outside the bunker. If this is correct, then there is no rule breach on your part. See Decision 13-4/35.5.

Also in your post, you allude to the idea of not bringing up a breach in time.

Firstly - in match play, a player can ignore a rules breach of his opponent (overlook it).

Secondly, there is the idea of making a claim against an opponent. As the first reply to your post indicated, Rule 2-5 is the relevant rule. When a dispute arises and a ruling can't be obtained, the aggrieved player can make a claim, based on this procedure;
i)he notifies his opponent he is making a claim
ii)he states the facts of the situation
iii)he wants a ruling on the matter (which can be later obtained)

Your final statement "Key point is, you must get a ruling before continuing.. you cannot agree to disagree and play on, getting a ruling later on. If you do not agree on the penalty before the next tee off, there is no penalty." is plain wrong

If you are going to play match play, read rules 2 and 9 carefully. Also, remember it is a test of golf, not of rules knowledge. Win with your clubs.

Snowyowl

[pom]

Blue is correct you must make the claim & sort it out before hitting off the next tee unless you can prove that your opponant gave you the wrong information intentionally. if you hit the sand during your shot no penalty obviously however if you then ground your club & your ball returns into the bunker, Yes you are penalised.

[snowyowl]

Blue is correct you must make the claim & sort it out before hitting off the next tee unless you can prove that your opponant gave you the wrong information intentionally. if you hit the sand during your shot no penalty obviously however if you then ground your club & your ball returns into the bunker, Yes you are penalised.

Pom - that Nth Qld sun has gotten to you...

Blue isn't correct...I'll dissect his statement in a moment. If you hit the ground whilst the ball is outside the bunker, it is no penalty. If it then rolls back into the ground, no penalty. It will be a penalty if you then ground the club whilst the ball is back in the bunker. Think of it this way. If the club and ball are in separate places, no penalty. If they are in the same place (hazard or bunker), penalty. Back to Blue's statement - "Key point is, you must get a ruling before continuing.. you cannot agree to disagree and play on, getting a ruling later on. If you do not agree on the penalty before the next tee off, there is no penalty." I'll go through it bit by bit... a. Key point is, you must get a ruling before continuing.. Not so. A player makes a claim and this claim can be adjudicated on at a later point in time. you cannot agree to disagree and play on, getting a ruling later on. In effect, the claim system under R2-5 is agreeing to disagree and getting the later ruling, so this sentence can be interpreted as a being correct. If you do not agree on the penalty before the next tee off, there is no penalty. Wrong. If it is adjudicated later that a breach was committed, then the ruling will penalise that player - be it a loss of hole penalty, or stroke penalty (as in R18-3b situation). Put on some sunscreen tomorrow Pom Snowyowl

[blue3715]

IMO you are mistaken.

If you hit the ground whilst the ball is outside the bunker, it is no penalty. If it then rolls back into the ground, no penalty. It will be a penalty if you then ground the club whilst the ball is back in the bunker. Think of it this way. If the club and ball are in separate places, no penalty. If they are in the same place (hazard or bunker), penalty.

Separate places, sure, but in my case the soht result was in the same bunker.

Are you saying if I hit the bunker shot, I can beat the sand as much as I want until the ball lands back in the bunker?! If the shot result is in the same bunker then you have violated the rules if your club touches the sand after your initial contact (even dropping the club by mistake).

a. Key point is, you must get a ruling before continuing..

no, you must have an agreement to the result of the hole before continuing.

I asked my pro on this, he said the match must stop due to a disagreement as to the output of the hole. If you tee off the next hole, the result on the scorecard stands. You cannot agree to continue on with a hole result in doubt. You cannot even continue the shot. If there is a dispute as to a drop location you cannot hit the shot until there's no dispute.

That is true unless the opponents team (player or caddy) is aware of the penalty and does nothing about it. You cannot "pocket the penalty" and bring it up at a later time. Your note allows for this.

[iacas]

IMO you are mistaken.

Good thing it's not really a matter of opinion. It's the rules and thus a matter of fact.

Decision 13-4/1 says that you can touch the sand when your ball it outside of the bunker. But more to the point, Decision 13-4/35.5 says:

Source: 13-4/35.5[/cite Ball Played from Bunker onto Grass Bank; Player Hits Sand with Club; Ball Then Rolls Back into Bunker Q. A player plays from a bunker and the ball lands on the grass bank of the bunker. Before the ball comes to rest, the player swings his club into the sand, after which the ball rolls back into the bunker. Rule 13-4b prohibits touching the ground in a hazard with a club when the ball lies in the hazard. Does the player incur a penalty under this Rule even though the ball was outside the bunker when the club was swung into the sand? A. No. However, if the club was still touching the sand when the ball rolled back into the bunker, a breach of Rule 13-4 occurred, and any doubt on this point should be resolved against the player.

So, there you have it.

Are you saying if I hit the bunker shot, I can beat the sand as much as I want until the ball lands back in the bunker?!

Read the above. He's not just saying it - the Rules of Golf are saying it. So long as you don't affect the lie or stance or area of your next shot, yep.

If the shot

I believe you're wrong, and that there is a decision that speaks to this. Exception 1b to rule 13-4 even says the player should not be penalized if:

Source: Exception 1b to Rule 13-4 Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player... (b) places his clubs in a hazard.

Now, "placing" your clubs and accidentally dropping them are two different things, of course, but the Rules are pretty lenient when it comes to "accidents" that don't affect anything. Ball moving while marking it, for example, or knocking your ball off a tee accidentally, etc. Also, there are easy-to-find decisions and rules regarding using clubs to prevent falling or tripping, for throwing rakes into bunkers, etc. Oh, and you may also want to read exception 2. It goes on to talk about nearly the same thing as above: touching the sand while you're ball's still in the same bunker.

no, you must have an agreement to the result of the hole before continuing.

Your pro ain't the USGA, dude. Please read rule 2-5.

If you tee off the next hole, the result on the scorecard stands. You cannot agree to continue on with a hole result in doubt. You cannot even continue the shot. If there is a dispute as to a drop location you cannot hit the shot until there's no dispute.

Absolutely incorrect.

That is true unless the opponents team (player or caddy) is aware of the penalty and does nothing about it. You cannot "pocket the penalty" and bring it up at a later time. Your note allows for this.

No, it does not. Again, please read rule 2-5. It says that you must make a claim, not that you must resolve things.

You cannot "pocket the penalty" - you're right - but rule 2-5 does not allow for pocketing of claims. You must make the claim, then you can wait (and play on) to have the committee resolve the matter later. Rule 2-5 is pretty clear here.

[blue3715]

thanks for pointing out that part of the ball on the hill rolling back into the bunker, i wasnt aware of that.. so in the end i did not make a penalty.. very interesting.

As for the claim, well in my case no claim was made until 2 holes later.. even though the team was aware of it.

In the end one should be careful of bunker shots, and making and claiming penalties.

i've played probably 50 matches in the last 5 years and only had 2 penalty situations.. one was hitting the wrong ball (called on myself) and the above.

My pro was quite adamant that you should not continue a match if the result of a hole is in doubt. I'll have to ask him again about that.

[iacas]

My pro was quite adamant that you should not continue a match if the result of a hole is in doubt. I'll have to ask him again about that.

There's no need to ask him. It's pretty plainly written in the rules.

If I were you I'd point out that he's wrong, but I don't know what more you'd have to "ask" him.

[snowyowl]

Blue3715

You said i've played probably 50 matches in the last 5 years and only had 2 penalty situations.. one was hitting the wrong ball (called on myself) and the above.

If your level of rules knowledge is as appalling as you've shown in this thread, you have no place being on the course playing a competitive match.

Apparently now - via iacas' posts - you finally believe the points I was trying to make to correct your misconceptions.

Snowyowl

[blue3715]

My rules notions were based on the best info i had from the rules book, and from the statements made from my pro. I don't think i had any significant "appalling" rules errors.

The issue wasn't about the rule of...
"Ball Played from Bunker onto Grass Bank; Player Hits Sand with Club; Ball Then Rolls Back into Bunker" but that the other player waiting well after he was told about a possible penalty to bring it up.

His caddy knew it on the 8th green, he told his player on the 9th, who waited for the hole to complete before bringing up the issue on #8.

by waiting he lost his ability to call the penalty.. there's no disagreeent on this.. which was the situation I described in the beginning.

The part about me hitting the sand while the ball was on the hill not being a penalty was something I agree iacas corrected.

The part about continuing to play without a ruling, and being in disagreement about the result of a hole.
-- usually a pro is not around and to wait for one to show up isn't realistic in most situatiojs
-- the pro is the local authority IMO.. yes he's "not the USGA" but who else is there to represent?
-- Fortunately ive not had a situation where a hole result was in doubt.. but I would be calling the pro shop from the nearest phone. Holding up the course isn't a reasonable thing to do.

and lastly "If your level of rules knowledge is as appalling as you've shown in this thread, you have no place being on the course playing a competitive match. ".. these forums are a place to discuss and learn.. and grow. So I didn't have all of the rules details. This precludes me from being in a match?

Do you know at the PGA they have one rules official out over each 3-4 holes? You ever see a player make a ruling or even a drop without a rules official there to confirm? Are you saying that they don't belong out there either?

I'm glad IACAS could point the rules out by their number... without being a complete a--hole, those people have no business in public.. such as yourself.

[snowyowl]

Blue3715,

You're a bit wound up over me saying you have demonstrated an appalling rules knowledge....and resort to calling me something that is part of someone's anatomy. I'll give you a pass on that one.

Yes, it is good to learn about the rules. Your profile beside your posts says handicap index is 8. Not familiar with your terminology, I take it to mean you play off an 8 handicap, which means on the odd occasion you hit a good ball.

I just consider that an 8 handicap playing match play would have a pretty good knowledge of some basic rules situations....

If you read my original post again, I did quote the Decision relevant to your situation about hitting the sand in the bunker. I also quoted the relevant rules to help you regarding match play, and the sub-section relevant to making a claim.

Most match play tournaments are run by a committee, and it is to them that you refer a claim made under R2-5. Some pros are part of a committee at a club, but often they aren't. The committee is to rule on a claim, and as you point out, a quick call to the club house to let them know a claim needs adjudicating on can be made without holding up the course.

I am familiar with the level of rules officiating at PGA tour events, and at lower level events right down to juniors. Yes, professionals do call for rulings all the time. They are playing for their living, and sometimes don't appear to know about a situation. But often they do it to CTA (cover their a**) when it comes to being penalised for not proceeding by the rules.

As a person who does officiating at lower level tournaments, we encourage players to call officials if they need us. We like to help them.

Yes, posting rules situations here is great for learning. Perhaps I was a bit out of line calling your knowledge apparently "appalling". But if you read my original post, I supplied all the information to address your situation, and you chose to disagree. Another poster had to confirm its accuracy and then you chose to accept it. I didn't resort to calling you something that you aren't though, which is what you did to me.

Enjoy your golf.

Snowyowl

[blue3715]

Blue3715,

then i apologize for my remark. I'm an 8 hdcp.. i shoot mostly between 84 and 87 with a few below and a few above here and there.

[Fourputt]

My rules notions were based on the best info i had from the rules book, and from the statements made from my pro. I don't think i had any significant "appalling" rules errors.

The Pro is not the authority, the Rules of Golf is the authority. If the Pro is wrong, then he needs to be so informed, and in this case he is definitely wrong. Golf professionals are not necessarily rules experts. In fact the opposite is often true, especially if they haven't kept up with the changes and regularly involved themselves in on course rules situations. I attended the 4 day USGA seminar here in Denver this year, and there were woefully few working golf professionals in the class. I pay the $250 myself and do it solely to keep myself informed. I scored what I consider a meager 80 (out of 100) on the exam, but at that I was above the median for those attending. And I can just about guarantee that anyone not attending would do far worse.

If I were you, I'd make a point of educating myself on the Rules of Golf (to the point of attending a USGA seminar if possible) and then you don't have to hope that whoever you ask has the correct answer. As often as not, he won't.

[blue3715]

The Pro is not the authority, the Rules of Golf is the authority.

And who is the player to go to in a rules question? Note, the pro drove out to the hole and informed us of the "proper" rule. We had no reason to dispute him. Who would imagine the head pro would be wrong.

[Fourputt]

And who is the player to go to in a rules question? Note, the pro drove out to the hole and informed us of the "proper" rule. We had no reason to dispute him. Who would imagine the head pro would be wrong.

I just answered this... carry your own rule book and learn how to use it. I've never met any pro, head or assistant, who knew all the rules. I don t profess to know all the rules, but I do know how to find most of the answers. As I said, there were no more than 10 club pros in the USGA seminar here out of 100 people in the class. Since we have upwards of 100 courses in the immediate area, that leaves several hundred uninformed club professionals out there. I expect that the proportions are quite similar elsewhere around the country.

This is why it is good to have some personal familiarity with the Rules of Golf and the Decisions. For a relatively simple question as you had, you wouldn't even have had to ask.

[blue3715]

thats a good point, i'll be sure to keep a rule of golf book in my bag... im not sure how happy the other guy would have been if I read the rule and said.. "sorry, your caddy knew about it on 8 and said nothing, it's too late."

Not withstanding my being right, it would have been a very ugly confrontation as best. I hope it doesn't happen again

[wachesawgolfer]

Blue3715

It is a game of rules knowledge as this whole tread aptly shows. Always has been.