Master "Forged vs. Cast" or "Blade vs. Game-Improvement" Iron Thread

[DJYoshi]

Some of us are playing for better scores, some for the enjoyment of a well-struck muscleback. Some of us appreciate the shotmaking that musclebacks can give us that cavity backs cannot (which directly improves scoring). Some of us appreciate that musclebacks can make us better players in the long run than the "immediate score-lowering" potential of a game improvement iron.

Erik makes a good point here. When I switched from x-16's to the MP60's, they warned me it would be a little harder to strike the ball and it wouldn't be as consistent as hitting a CB. They warned me it would hurt on mishits. I'd have to say that even though i'm not playing a blade but a "cut muscle" club, I seen and felt a huge difference in my swing, ball striking and shot making capabilities.

Before I'd say: hit it straight and as far as possible. Now I'm thinking: what kind of shot can I hit to get it close to the pin. should I play a draw or a fade. should I hit it lower or hit a high shot. without a doubt switching to the mp 60's from the x-16's have forced me to understand the swing & know what causes what. hit it fat, hit it thin, push, pull, duck hook, slice, or shanks. you DON'T want to have stinging hands after your shot...and you want good results...sure your scores might suffer while you're adjusting to the new clubs...but once you do..the feeling of hitting a pure shot with them is awesome.

[winders]

I think if you want to take golf serious you should really want to play with cut muscle or muscle back irons because they are hands down the best performing irons one can hit. (I don't know if the AP2 falls into that category but I'm going to lump them in there because they are some of the best irons I've ever hit) and yes the way the metal is formed does matter to alot of people.

Why?? The majority of Pro Tour players do not use blades (MB or Cut Muscle). Most Tour players use player's cavity back irons to get the extra forgiveness without sacrificing shot making ability. I think Pro's take golf more seriously than you or I ever will.

The AP2 is a dual cavity "cavity back" iron and not a blade, muscle back, or cut muscle iron. The point about forged versus cast was not player preference. You said that forged provided better feedback. That is false. The design of the iron head determines the amount of feedback, not how the head was formed. S-

[$2 Nassau]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that everyone should be playing blades, but in my opinion, if you play golf on a regular basis and are looking to improve, stay clear of the huge, clunky ultimate game improvement sets. Game improvement is a bit of a misnomer for those clubs I think, I don't see how they will improve your game in the long run.

Just my humble opinion. Carry on.

[dragonflyin]

I bought a used set of Mizuno MP-33s earlier this year for $125. Decided to move on from my Mizuno T-Zoids because I really wanted to challenge my golf swing for the year. I agree with the points in the article stating that your worse shots will be worse, and your better shots will be great. Giving away forgiveness for a higher launch, tighter distance, and buttery feel is trade I'm willing to make. However, this is really a personal choice depending on a golfer's handicap and attitude.

Early results of this switch? I've dropped my handicap into the single digits from low teens as of last year. I feel like my swing is more consistent from day to day, and I have better spatial awareness of the club face throughout my swing. The downside is that because I hit MP-33s a little higher than the T-Zoids, I lose about 3-5 yards on my mid-irons, probably 5-7 yards off my long irons. This is primarily due to the weaker standard loft in these blades. However, I feel the distance control factor makes up for all this.

Several people have raised points on tour pros moving to cavity-backs and even some "game-improvement" irons. First of all, their shot dispersion is so much more precise than the average Joe/Jane that the comparison of iron choice is a little weak. Given their talent to spin the ball, control the flight, and hit it out of all lies, they will optimize the performance of cavity-backs OR blades. So why would they play cavity-backs? Because that's what their sponsors will pay the most. Can you imagine if EVERY tour player played blades or low-handicap irons? Companies like Ping, Callaway, or Taylor Made would seize to dominate. Pros have enough game that they can sacrifice the upside of blades for some upside in their wallets.

At the end of the day, what makes golf as prominent as it has been is the fact that golf is a rare sport that endorsements can generate a LOT of product revenue within its own game.

[Saleen]

I have been playing original DCI's golds for years. I recently bought a set of the Mizuno MP57's because i thought it would be a great comprimise. Still a cavity back and has the forged feel. Feel is very much represented by the material used rather than the design. These Mizunos are actually more forgiving than my DCI's. That could be design or material but bottom line, if you are not in the single digits you really should not be using blades. Also, i need to have confience with the look at setup. I tested out the MX25's from Mizuno along with the MP57s. The MX were a tad more forgiving but did not look as good at address.

[Blades4me]

Why should you play blades over cavity? maybe the article below will make you want to switch.

I have 4 sets of clubs. MacGregor V-foil 1025 combo set, Mizuno's mixed set of mp 60's and 32's and 2 set of old blades. The old blades are Wilson 78 tour blades and Golden Rams frequency matched.

IMO, blades have better distance control and feel whereas I can lean on the cb's more. Thats why I have combo sets; best of both worlds. Cb's in long to mid irons. By the time I'm to the 7 and especially 8i and on up I want accuracy over distance, hence a blade. Although I have to say that when I pure either the Wilson's or the Ram's there is no sweeter feel. They feel better and more solid than either my Mac's or Mizzies and I'm getting to the point I can hit these babies pretty consistantly. I've also noticed a big difference between the old irons and new irons around the green and prefer the old irons better b/c they are more controlable and predictable, well at least for me. This of course is just my opinion.

[rgoudy1975]

I have always heard that mid to high handicappers couldn't hit blades. Well, I typlically rail against conventions (not to be an ass, but just because I want to find out for myself). I bought some Mizuno MP-33s last month and I hit them very solidly and love the feedback from the occassional mishit. I am above a ten handicap, but I have been playing intermittently all my life and have a decent swing. Nonetheless, I love the blades and do not anticipate ever going back to CBs.

[ks8829]

I have always heard that mid to high handicappers couldn't hit blades. Well, I typlically rail against conventions (not to be an ass, but just because I want to find out for myself). I bought some Mizuno MP-33s last month and I hit them very solidly and love the feedback from the occassional mishit. I am above a ten handicap, but I have been playing intermittently all my life and have a decent swing. Nonetheless, I love the blades and do not anticipate ever going back to CBs.

I did the same thing about 2 years ago and I haven't looked back! playing my best golf ever.

[imtomtomim]

I've been playing cavity back irons but recently, I've noticed how much control I have on my 52 gap wedge. My wedges are all blades and it leads me to believe that I can play blades or should upgrade to blades. I've learned to shape my shots and if you read reviews on my curent iron's set, nickent 3dx hybrids, it tells you they can't be shaped. I've been having a pretty easy time putting different degree's of draw and fade on it but I really want more feel on the ball.

[ScottyCameron]

What are the main differences between these two?

[NBGC]

There are as many opinion's on this as there are clubs on the market.

Some, the majority, will say 2 clubs given the same weight, design, size, etc same in all manners EXCEPT one being cast, the other forged, cannot be differentiated from each other.

The minority, usually those who play forged clubs, will say they can tell the difference. That forged heads feel softer and better on well struck balls.

Casting is a process where the metal is liquified and poured into a mold, then cooled and worked.
Forged is a single ingot of the metal, heated and cut/pressed into shape.

Both agree that the forged is a softer metal, as demonstrated by more bag chatter than cast.

Either way, if you're a good ball striker both will work and have the same distance. You may be unfortunate enough to be in the 1% that can tell the difference in feel. Personally, when I swapped from my Callaway's to Mizuno's, there was an immediate change in feel for me, whether that's from going from cast to forged, or from GI to player's iron's is debatable.

[bigoak]

With vibration dampening it is hard to feel the difference. The cast will not dent from bag chatter as much as forged. I think that forged irons put more spin on the ball but that might just be a mental thing. But saying that you play forged blades is like taking a Viagra.

[Monty_Ryder]

With vibration dampening it is hard to feel the difference. The cast will not dent from bag chatter as much as forged. I think that forged irons put more spin on the ball but that might just be a mental thing. But saying that you play forged blades is like taking a Viagra.

Meaning saying "I play forged" is just giving yourself a hard-on? Haha

[sirvivor]

I really lost my head a few months ago and found myself standing outside a golf shop with a set of forged blades MP 32s, onsale of course. Even worse they had steel shafts which I haven't played except in wedges since I bought my brand new Karsten 111s a few years ago!!! Well apart from the great price this moment of madness was probably the best thing I could have done to my game. From 6 up they are the easiest and most accurate irons I have ever played and the feel---- oh boy. The 5 I have to be a bit careful with, no sloppy swings but not that punishing on mishits.
Now like many people I have a lot of brand new 3s and 4s in the cupboard but these 32s looked so great I had to try and play them and the care to make a good turn and stay behind the ball as compared to just whacking with my bricks on sticks has really paid off. Everything in my swing has improved specially my tempo which is much smoother and slower. By the way the shafts are Nippon nsprolight and I cant tell the difference from graphite but I guess they are more consistent in distance which is another plus. If you come across these clubs at a sale price buy them, they're worth every penny

[fusioncal]

There are as many opinion's on this as there are clubs on the market.

I'd like to add that forged club heads are made from single billet of carbon steel and heated so it's soft enough then it's hammered approximately 5 times into shape. The excess steel then is removed from the edge. Afterwards if need to they'll grind down to spec. The iron coating is next.

On the other hand, cast clubs are made from liquid steel poured into mold. Simple as that and cheaper in production too. Technically you'll find the grain structures in forged clubs are more compact and solid. While in cast clubs there are occasions pockets of air bubble are formed. To me, forged club is like handmade and cast club is like factory mass produced products. The debate forged vs cast is that they feel the same if they're made the same design. However, forged clubs are made from softer material in the first place. So, do they still feel the same? I too came from Callaway Fusion and boy the change in feel I experienced. My MP-60 is very soft when struck pure. And now, honestly I wouldn't want to use cast clubs anymore. No turning back.

[dkinser86]

When I started playing, I was playing Callaway X12, which of course, are cast. I played with those until the end of last summer. Then I got a set of Mizuno MP30's. After hitting a bit on the range to get a feel for them, I went to the course. Man, was I impressed. Incredible feel. I really felt like I could hit any shot. Draws, fades, high, low, anything. After than round, I will never playing anything cast again.

I will note, however, you do have to make good swings. If you are not at least pretty consistent, go with something more forgiving.

[biscuity]

Basically there used to be a big difference, but today there is not much difference. A lot of the misconception is due to the history of forged/cast golf clubs and marketing.

Hardness -- It depends on the type of metal they start with. It's possible to make a cast club softer than a forged club. But in the golf industry they usually choose a softer metal for the forged clubs. The forging process aligns the metal particles on the outside of the head for strength, and lets the inside of the head remain soft for feel. But you would be hard pressed to discern the difference in feel without knowing what you were hitting. The golf ball itself is so much softer than the metal that it masks the feeling.

Shape -- In the past there were limitations on the shape of the head with the forging process, for a long time there were no forged cavity back irons, just blades. That opened the door for companies like Ping to use the benefits of cast irons... perimeter weighting and sharp/clean face grooves enticed many pro golfers to give up their forged blade irons in the late 70's, 80's and 90's. But manufacturing processes have evolved over the past 10 years that allow cavity back irons to be forged, so the clear advantages and disadvantages have become blurry.

Cost -- Forging is a much more expensive process than casting, so the price of forged irons is higher. Golf consumers often assume that more expensive is better, so they are willing to spend more for something they think gives them an advantage. Millions and millions of dollars have been won on the PGA tour with cast irons, so it's definitely possible to play great golf with cast irons.

Marketing -- We all want to be like Tiger, right? Well not all of us, but the Pro's play a huge role in what people buy. You can find cast and forged irons being played on tour, so it's really up to you, test them both and see what feels and works best for you. For me, other factors make a much bigger difference than forged vs cast. I can easily feel the difference between cavity back vs blade, offset vs no offset, surlyn ball vs urethane ball, but forged vs cast is pretty small difference.

For a good test you should try hitting the new Titleist AP1 (cast) and AP2 (forged) irons back-to-back on the driving range.

(BTW, I play Titleist 704CB forged cavity back irons)

[JOSEPHLB]

I say.. who cares.. Why worry about what mid or low or high handicappers are playing.

Play the clubs that YOU enjoy playing and not worry about what everyone else is playing.

If people spent less time worry about what everyone else was playing and directed that attention to something more positive.. such as improving your own game