Master "Forged vs. Cast" or "Blade vs. Game-Improvement" Iron Thread

[dak4n6]

Quote:

Muscle backs are blades, cavity backs are not.

I love semantics on internet forums. How can someone who did not invent a term put definitive restrictions on the term? The English language should be a fluid, living thing.

So, what do you call non-GI cavity backs that are identical in every way to 'blades' except that they have a very shallow vanity cavity?

[newtogolf]

I think he's stating blades higher center of gravity requires more lag and hitting down on the ball to get the max distance.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Can you elaborate on this one?  If you hit the club lower on the face, is the result that poor swingers are unable to get the ball up in the air with a blade/MB iron?

Brandon

[The Tin Man]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

Obviously there is no definitive answer for this.  Like I said, no way I'd go back to blades.  Maybe that's just personal preference.

What I believe to be true about blade irons is:

Smaller sweet spot than GI iron = less forgiving = have to be more precise with your swing to achieve the desired outcome

Higher center of gravity than GI iron = have to hit the club higher on the face = have to have better swing dynamics

More heel weighted = actual sweet spot between center of face and heel of clubhead = toe strikers will have trouble

Your modern MB designs have more weight in the toe and a lower center of gravity then many realize. Mizuno offers a good selection of  MB's that at first glance look the same but are not. The sweet spot has been moved more towards the toe, and up/down the face depending on the model.

The sweet sport is tiny on all clubs - what CB's offer is a larger "forgiveness" zone. The larger this "forgiveness zone" becomes the more "dead" the club feels. SGI

Swing - I have no idea how I find the ball, never mind the sweet spot? Somehow my brain adjusts without thinking about it.

Shanks - Tops - Chunks - Toe hits...........no club is going to prevent major swing flaws. But, a blade immediately punishes toe hits with stinging hands. Somehow my brain adjusts and stops doing that.

Last but far from least. Most of us are already playing Blade Wedges - adding a few  MB scoring irons is not a big deal.  I don't play my MB long irons, I use CB's.  What MB's offer is more distance control. The face is not 'hot' - no surprises. Now add a ball that's not hot off the face and you gain consistency.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Can you elaborate on this one?  If you hit the club lower on the face, is the result that poor swingers are unable to get the ball up in the air with a blade/MB iron?

Brandon

Not unable to get the ball up neccessarily, but a ball struck low on the face of a cavity back should fly longer than a ball struck low on the face of a blade.

[The Recreational Golfer]

The problem with forged irons isn't that they are unforgiving and hard to hit. It's that forged 2- through 4-irons are unforgiving and hard to hit. Back when forged irons were all we had, there were as many articles in the golf magazines about how to hit long irons as there were on how to get out of a bunker.

Replace your long irons with hybrid irons, use forged irons for the rest, and you've got yourself a set of clubs. The notion that forged irons are only for accomplished players is bunk.

[The Tin Man]

Originally Posted by dak4n6

I love semantics on internet forums. How can someone who did not invent a term put definitive restrictions on the term? The English language should be a fluid, living thing.

So, what do you call non-GI cavity backs that are identical in every way to 'blades' except that they have a very shallow vanity cavity?

Like the first issue Calloway X Forged that proves the exception to the rule?  I wouldn't call a 1mm cut a CB, it's more like they added some material to the top line to keep them from bending.  (Those were nice!)

Models like that are  rare and Calloway deepened the cavity with the next generation.

[newtogolf]

Forged irons tend to be made for better golfers but forged irons and blades are not the same.  There are many forged cavity back irons that are forgiving such as the Callaway X-Forged, TaylorMade TP CB.  Mizuno MX Series were forged but forgiving as well.

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer

The problem with forged irons isn't that they are unforgiving and hard to hit. It's that forged 2- through 4-irons are unforgiving and hard to hit. Back when forged irons were all we had, there were as many articles in the golf magazines about how to hit long irons as there were on how to get out of a bunker.

Replace your long irons with hybrid irons, use forged irons for the rest, and you've got yourself a set of clubs. The notion that forged irons are only for accomplished players is bunk.

[Mr3Wiggle]

I'd say the biggest concrete benefit to blades is on dead center contact they have a tighter dispersion pattern than cavity backs.  I've read articles where people used "Iron Byron" hitting machines to test this.  If someone consistently strikes the ball on the sweet spot and has solid swing dynamics (decent shaft lean at impact) I could see the advantage of playing a blade.  I think you would have to be so consistently good with your ball striking though that the dispersion on perfect cavity back shots, outweighed the missed sweet spot shots with your blades.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer

The problem with forged irons isn't that they are unforgiving and hard to hit. It's that forged 2- through 4-irons are unforgiving and hard to hit.

What on earth are you talking about? What has the fact tat they are forged got to do with it?

The method of club manufacture has nothing to do with how easy or hard a club is to hit.

Are you sugesting that a forged hammer is hard to use?

[newtogolf]

cav·i·ty /ˈkavitē/ - An empty space within a solid object

If there's a space it's not a muscle back or blade.  There no reason to change the definition of blade when the one for cavity back is accurate.

Originally Posted by dak4n6

I love semantics on internet forums. How can someone who did not invent a term put definitive restrictions on the term? The English language should be a fluid, living thing.

So, what do you call non-GI cavity backs that are identical in every way to 'blades' except that they have a very shallow vanity cavity?

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer

The problem with forged irons isn't that they are unforgiving and hard to hit. It's that forged 2- through 4-irons are unforgiving and hard to hit. Back when forged irons were all we had, there were as many articles in the golf magazines about how to hit long irons as there were on how to get out of a bunker.

Replace your long irons with hybrid irons, use forged irons for the rest, and you've got yourself a set of clubs. The notion that forged irons are only for accomplished players is bunk.

http://www.overstock.com/Sports-Toys/Ben-Hogan-Apex-Edge-Forged-Golf-Iron-Set/3552748/product.html

That's a forged iron and it's a shovel.  So are the Callaway X-Tours I have in my bag.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

cav·i·ty/ˈkavitē/ - An empty space within a solid object

If there's a space it's not a muscle back or blade.  There no reason to change the definition of blade when the one for cavity back is accurate.

I think the confusion stems from some golf companies marketing their player's cavity back as a blade.  Like when Ping did it with the I3 Blade.  Obviously that is not a blade.

[The Tin Man]

The worst is putters. If it's not a mallet it's a blade.

Bulls Eye putters - that's a blade!

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by The Tin Man

The worst is putters. If it's not a mallet it's a blade.

Bulls Eye putters - that's a blade!

Agreed.  Same goes for the 8802 style.

[dak4n6]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

cav·i·ty /ˈkavitē/ - An empty space within a solid object

If there's a space it's not a muscle back or blade.  There no reason to change the definition of blade when the one for cavity back is accurate.

Quote:

I think the confusion stems from some golf companies marketing their player's cavity back as a blade.  Like when Ping did it with the I3 Blade.  Obviously that is not a blade.

OK, how about the Ping s59? It has a big muscle bulge right underneath the shallowest of cavities.  Actually the whole Ping s line has some variation of this. And someone pointed out the Calloway x forged. Or how about the W/S FG tour V2.  There is actually an abundance of these shallow blade-like CBs.  How about putters being called blade putters?  There are no real blade MB putters except maybe for the one Lefty used to use 10 years ago.

I was just suggesting that maybe the definition for the term 'blade' could use some loosening up, but I guess too many here are stuck and fearful of change..

[sean_miller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dak4n6

Originally Posted by newtogolf

cav·i·ty /ˈkavitē/ - An empty space within a solid object

If there's a space it's not a muscle back or blade.  There no reason to change the definition of blade when the one for cavity back is accurate.

Quote:

I think the confusion stems from some golf companies marketing their player's cavity back as a blade.  Like when Ping did it with the I3 Blade.  Obviously that is not a blade.

OK, how about the Ping s59? It has a big muscle bulge right underneath the shallowest of cavities.  Actually the whole Ping s line has some variation of this. And someone pointed out the Calloway x forged. Or how about the W/S FG tour V2.  There is actually an abundance of these shallow blade-like CBs.  How about putters being called blade putters?  There are no real blade MB putters except maybe for the one Lefty used to use 10 years ago.

I was just suggesting that maybe the definition for the term 'blade' could use some loosening up, but I guess too many here are stuck and fearful of change..

You've listed some nice players cavity back irons there.

I think the real issue is some guys have an image of a hardened veteran playing off scratch with a bag full of blades and they'd dearly love to be that guy in the eyes of their peers and thus are fearful of admitting that what they currently have in the bag is probably actually a cavity but sounds much cooler to say they're "gaming blades" than "using cavity backs"..

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by dak4n6

Originally Posted by newtogolf

cav·i·ty/ˈkavitē/ - An empty space within a solid object

If there's a space it's not a muscle back or blade.  There no reason to change the definition of blade when the one for cavity back is accurate.

OK, how about the Ping s59? It has a big muscle bulge right underneath the shallowest of cavities.  Actually the whole Ping s line has some variation of this. And someone pointed out the Calloway x forged. Or how about the W/S FG tour V2.  There is actually an abundance of these shallow blade-like CBs.  How about putters being called blade putters?  There are no real blade MB putters except maybe for the one Lefty used to use 10 years ago.

I was just suggesting that maybe the definition for the term 'blade' could use some loosening up, but I guess too many here are stuck and fearful of change..

I think over time the generally accepted definition will loosen up to include players cavities.  Probably has already started to loosen up.

[newtogolf]

Agreed - blade like is not blade.  They may appear to be blade-like, but in terms of playability they aren't.  A Ping S56 is considered a GI iron with 552 MPF compared to a true blade, the Mizuno MP-69 which is considered a "Conventional" iron with a 403 MPF

Originally Posted by sean_miller

You've listed some nice players cavity back irons there.

I think the real issue is some guys have an image of a hardened veteran playing off scratch with a bag full of blades and they'd dearly love to be that guy in the eyes of their peers and thus are fearful of admitting that what they currently have in the bag is probably actually a cavity but sounds much cooler to say they're "gaming blades" than "using cavity backs"..