Dress Codes: Good or Bad for the Game?

[Smallville]

There's a reason the phrase "Sunday best" exists... Yes, now it seems ridiculously class-ist (ugh, stop the P.C. BULL

What if someone's Sunday best doesn't measure up to yours? Should they just stay home? Or find a poorer church? Again, I don't care how people dress when they go to church. Only that they GO.

[flopdarock]

hahaha... yeah... i think we have to add location to the equation... san diego/vegas/hawaii all have dress codes at "gentlemens" clubs... then there are the bikerbar strip clubs that its a requirement to have at least a knife to get in...

like i said in the beginning... it all depends on the course you play... that also includes location

[Big_M]

A fancy restaurant . . . OK I give you that one. Church? You're going to look down on someone in Church for any reason? I'm glad they are at church. I don't care what people wear to go there. That's ridiculous. I think people have more class than you give them credit for. It's comments about having more class than someone else like that that make me think less of people. Go ask the priest/preacher/minister what's more important: going to church at all or staying home because you aren't dressed "classy". I bet I know what his answer is. And if it's different than what I think it would be, then I am glad I don't go to that church.

It's about respect... yes it's great that someone came to church, but out of respect for the occaision dress appropriately. Not everyone has the cash for a nice suite (although I would bet most do), but everyone can afford a pair of khakis and polo for church or golf. I don't want to golf or go to church with a bunch of people wearing shaggy blue jeans and t-shirts... it just doesn't fit the occaision.... call it snobbery if you must, but I call it respecting the activity. Pretty much everyone can afford to dress in a respectable manner for these two activities, so why not?

I strongly support dress codes for golf, fine dining, church, theatre, etc.

[NM Golf]

All I said was that honor and integrity have nothing to do with how one dresses.

While an honorable person may not dress well and vice versa, showing that you have respect and what you doing is important to you has a lot to do with dress. I show that respect in the way I dress. I respect the golf course, I respect the game of golf. I choose to show that by dressing the way I feel is appropriate. I think thats important. How you feel is entirely your business.

To each there own, I don't judge, you could be a great person. But to show up on a golf course dressed in basketball shorts and a tank top is wrong as far as I am concerned. Its not judging you as a person, its making a simple observation. I don't think any less of you, you just have different beliefs than I do. You were raised differently, right or wrong that is not for me to decide. You also have as much right to be on the course as I do providing the dress code allows it. I just choose to not want to play with you. We can go have a beer afterwards no problem.

But to say that person has no integrity just because he is wearing jeans to play golf in cold weather

Again Fourputt, where exactly did I write those words? I don't like people putting words in my mouth. You need to watch it.

... well, I guess 3/4 of the guys who play at my home course this time of year are without honor. Even the head pro often wears jeans to work this time of year. I guess NM Golf would refuse to play with him.

If you ever read my previous posts you would have seen I have no problem with jeans under certain circumstances. I am in no more of a hurry to wreck a good pair of khakis sloshing around a winter muddy muni course than anyone else. I wear jeans quite often in the wintertime at my local muni. Mind you they are accompanied by a tucked in golf shirt.

I don't really care about what people are wearing so much as how they act on a course. I'd rather see a well behaved, divot fixing guy in a wife beater and basketball shoes than a guy dressed to the nines getting drunk and leaving the course a mess.

I have worked at a public municipal golf course for 10+ years and I will simply say this. In my experience, when I get called out to the course to deal with a problem of someone tearing up the golf course, or being drunk and stupid(which is all too often I'm afraid) 99.9% of the time they are not dressed appropriately. I can even say this, I have never had remove a single player from the golf course where I work who was dressed in traditional golf attire. I am not saying that all the t-shirt wearers of the world don't know how to take care of the course. I am just saying in my experience if a person takes the time to dress in nice pants or shorts and a golf shirt, they also take the time to take care of the course.

You can try and tell me that isn't true until the cows come home but I see it everyday. So let me reiterate so fourputt doesn't misquote me again. I choose to dress well on the golf course. I think it is important for me to do so. You on the other hand have the right to feel different and may dress however you choose. I won't think any less of you, but at the same time dress appropriately or play in front or behind me. Thank you

[Smallville]

We should probably get back on topic. It's about golf courses, not churches!

[Spackler-esque]

As I equated church and golf course, I am going to replace "church" with "golf course" in the following quotes to emphasize a point. That point being that we've fallen too far into the religion aspect of this argument and that we need to get back to the issue at hand, which is respect for the establishment that is the golf course. (changes are bold-ed and underlined)

It is still a populist versus traditionalist question. Just in a different forum.

What if someone's Sunday best doesn't measure up to yours?

Someone's Sunday best isn't necessarily a damn suit or even a sports coat, man. But jeans and a t-shirt it is not. Khakis and a button-down shirt or a polo shirt isn't asking much. Maybe a tie if someone's feel ambitious.

Should they just stay home?

No. They should stop at Goodwill on the way. Otherwise? Sure. If they can't afford a cheap pair of respectable shorts/slacks and a cheap polo (<$30 one-time investment if done right), why are they wasting money on a full round that is often a comparable investment?

Or find a poorer

A muni? Or, really, a more lax muni? Yes. Yes they should. I mention the reason about wasting money above.

Again, I don't care how people dress when they go to

Yeah, go ahead and call me a class-ist snob, because I completely disagree. Maybe I'm old fashioned in my ways, but I expect people to put some effort into looking respectable especially when going to a place that is important and full of tradition. Oops. Sorry. My bad.

[Smallville]

You know, spackler, swapping the words in the last two have nothing to do with how I feel about the dress code at a golf course. If there is a dress code, fine, if there's not, regardless of what kind of course it is, chill out. I don't mind dressing nice. If someone else doesn't that's their perogative if the course allows it. Don't like it? don't go to that course or take it up with management.

And especially the last example. You make it sound like I said that about golf courses. I didn't; it was about churches, which is off the topic at this point. Choose your examples and substitutions better. And yeah, I would consider you a, well probably not first-class but you are definitely a lower-class snob.

[Fourputt]

It's about respect... ....call it snobbery if you must, but I call it respecting the activity. Pretty much everyone can afford to dress in a respectable manner for these two activities, so why not?

To me, respecting the game is taking care of the course, playing by the rules, using good etiquette, respecting the game's traditions. I just don't see that a particular dress code fits in there anywhere. Would you rather that we play wearing what they wore to play 100 years ago... coat and tie and wool plus fours? That was casual outdoor apparel for the well to do then. In fact if you saw the typical golfer of the 1890's out walking through the gorse, you'd have to check what he was carrying to know why he was there. The same apparel was worn for golf as what was worn for fowling. I suppose we should still dress like that to go hunting these days...

My point being that there really is NO traditional wear for golf... the proper apparel for each era is whatever was in style at the time. The ONLY reason that the styles have usually reflected the more affluent side of society is because historically those are the only people who could afford the time and money to play. That is no longer the case, and I feel that the styles should reflect the typical apparel for the modern player, not some arbitrary standard from a bygone era. Contrary to an earlier opinion, there is no "uniform" for golf, except for maybe the shoes and glove, and they aren't really necessary. I almost always wear a golf polo, but I don't require the next guy to. I only ask that what he wears be clean and presentable. In that small respect, I guess I support a dress code too, but it's just a common sense code for anyone going out in public. In fact 6 of us went to the theater (at the Denver Center for the Performing Arts) to see Jersey Boys the last Sunday of 2008, and there were less than 5% of the men even wearing ties, much less a jacket.... we were part of the scruffy 95% in our casual slacks and dress shirts. Another archaic more bites the dust.

[Spackler-esque]

Well, Smallville, then you probably shouldn't've been the one to take my words out of context and assume that I cared about churches by preaching about populist religion and the right of everyone to blah blah blah regardless of blah blah *snore*

To clarify, my point about bringing up the concept of the "Sunday best" was to show that culturally respected institutions at least used to have expectations for dress. This was a good thing. It encouraged people to put in some effort.

You know, spackler, swapping the words in the last two have nothing to do with how I feel about the dress code at a golf course.

Sorry for reading into that. Maybe you should've stuck closer to the topic of golf courses, then.

And especially the last example. You make it sound like I said that about golf courses. I didn't; it was about churches, which is off the topic at this point.

You act as if I didn't include a disclaimer.

Choose your examples and substitutions better.

I thought they were pretty good. They certainly served my purpose.

And yeah, I would consider you a, well probably not first-class but you are definitely a lower-class snob.

Aww, you shouldn't have! Such a nice back-handed compliment!

But you're right, somewhat. I respect people who put effort into the things they do. In the case of golf and other seemingly culturally important events, that most certainly includes dress. I don't feel that expecting people to put in that effort is out of line. Do I understand it won't always happen, especially at munis and other lower-rate (price-wise, not necessarily quality of people or course wise) courses? Yes. Am I a little disappointed? Yes. But I'll live. Thanks for your concern.

[Smallville]

Aww, you shouldn't have! Such a nice back-handed compliment!

Yeah, you're right, I should have restrained myself. I thought that after it posted and I shut the computer down. That's a bad one on me.

At any rate, I wll not look down on someone because they aren't dressed up to some people's standards. As long as it's allowed (on the course or anywhere) who am I to complain?

[RocktimusPryme]

I keep seeing the word appropriate come up. Thats drives me up the wall, its so frustrating. Who are any of you people to get to decide whats appropriate? I just get seething mad when I read garbage like this.

When Im on the floor at work. I dress nice. I have nice suits, designer ties, shoes, Montblanc cufflinks, an Armani watch. And these same people who see me in a suit all the time dont change their opinion of me when they happen to see me come up in normal clothing. Consisting of either jeans, or kahki shorts and a t-shirt. Even though Im absolutely covered in tattoos. They dont change their opinion of me, because by that point they know me. Im a nice guy, whats not to like. But on the other hand had many of them saw me in the latter format first probbaly would have formed a different opinion of me without giving me a chance. Which is sickening.....

And Im using myself as an example because I know alot about me but this isnt all a personal issue with the system. I completely agree with Fourputt that I could care less if a person is dressed in complete Tiger Woods apparel, or in jeans a Corona T-shirt and Flip-Flops as long as they were fun to play with, and didnt break any REAL ettiquite rules, such as respecting when its someone elses turn, or fixing their ball marks and whatnot.

So again why does anybody get to decide whos fit to play the game based on the clothes on their back, or the lifestyle outsite of the course they decide to pursue. Do I look like the prototypical country club persona. Nope, but I enjoy the same game for the same reasons, and quite honestly play better than most for that matter. (perhaps not on this board but people who take the time to be on a golf board are ussually far more serious than your avg. enthusiast) So if in your opinion having snakes and skulls and flames running up my arms, and wearing different clothes makes me a sub-par member of society not fit to play a GAME with..... well then I dont think I would wanna play with you anyway. And frankly you should be ashamed of yourself.

Sick part is, I would probbaly wear a polo shirt and kahkis to play in anyway just because thats what i was taught to swing in and it feels comfortable on the course. I just think its appaling to be told I have to so I dont insult other peoples delicate sensibilities.



Ps. Aside from golf my other expensive habit is upscale steakhouses. Of which there are a plethora out here. Pretty much none of them have a dresscode, even though people always assume they do and show up in grand attire. I show up in jeans and a t-shirt. guess what, nobody cares, or gives a 2nd glance. My money still spends the same, and I tip better than most anyway so the staff loves me. Nobodys steak tastes any worse because they guy at the next table is in a "Ride the Lightning" t-shirt. And I dont think it would cause you to turn a birdie into a bogey on the course either.

[NM Golf]

I really need to stop posting on this thread as its like banking my head against a wall.

I keep seeing the word appropriate come up. Thats drives me up the wall, its so frustrating. Who are any of you people to get to decide whats appropriate? I just get seething mad when I read garbage like this.

I didn't decide what was appropriate. Appropriate golf attire has been developed through the years. For the most part by the golf industry and golf courses. But to say there isn't a very clear line to what is considered "golf attire" and what is not is just bull

. If you don't want to wear golf attire fine but don't hide your head in the sand and play stupid. You know damn well what is appropriate and what is not.

So again why does anybody get to decide whos fit to play the game based on the clothes on their back, or the lifestyle outsite of the course they decide to pursue.

Stretching it a bit aren't you? I don't think anyone on this entire thread has said anything about what you do or wear outside the golf course. Nor did I say someone was unfit to play golf based on their attire. All of you anti-dress code guys have such persecution complex. I couldn't care less what you wear as long as you're not in my foursome.

And frankly you should be ashamed of yourself.

The same could be said about someone showing up at the golf course dressed like its laundry day.

[RocktimusPryme]

I really need to stop posting on this thread as its like banking my head against a wall.

No I dont know whats appropriate because someone else's clothing has, your guessed it, ABSOLUTELY ZERO, effect on your golf game. So why would it be inappropriate if its not affecting you one bit. And if you say well I jjust dont think I could play well with someone who doesnt look the same as me, well then thats just horrid.

And no Im not stetching it because many peoples lifestyle outside the course (such as ink, and piercings) would be visible on the course, and thus subject to persecution as you put it. And again no I wouldnt be ashamed of myself for looking like its laundry day, because Im not judging if another human being has the right to be in my presence based on the way they are dressed. I could live just fine with dressing poorly, however I would hate myself for being a bigot. Everytime I think the human race as a whole and America specifically is really getting its act together and being tolerant of everyone I run into a barrier like this.

[Spackler-esque]

I keep seeing the word appropriate come up. Thats drives me up the wall, its so frustrating. Who are any of you people to get to decide whats appropriate? I just get seething mad when I read garbage like this.

I haven't used it directly yet. Though I guess I have implied it. However, the word "appropriate" has been complete destroyed by my generation, so I can't say it even fits a respectable construct such as a golf course anymore. The idea, as absurd as it is, from Flannery O'Conner's

A Good Man is Hard to Find to dress up for a car ride and to wear clean underwear in case one dies in an accident so whoever finds you will know you're a lady/gentleman is from a bygone era. Hell, nowadays too many "ladies" don't even wear underwear. I wonder how that would be taken... Appropriateness has to be dictated in this, the Barney, "Everyone's special" era. It's sad but very true. Arguing on this point with me will be futile. After all, a year ago I got done with four-and-a-half years on a college campus. It doesn't get much more absurd than that in terms of "appropriateness." As someone who dresses so well at work, clearly showing pride in what you do, I can't believe you're so adamant about being anti-dress code. Then the tattoo persecution angst explains it. The tattoos? You probably think I have an issue with them. I don't. I have a lot of respect for people who can commit with reason to permanent body art. I've thought about it for a number of years. I have a design, even. I just can't pull the trigger. Look. I don't care what's on your skin or what color it is. Period. As far as I'm concerned the only real downsides to tattoos are that they can sag/change as you age and that you can't be buried in a Jewish cemetery, neither of which has an effect on me. They aren't an issue. Period. However, I would hope that an individual has enough respect for him/herself and/or (at least) the golf course to dress (I'll use your favorite word here instead of "respectfully) appropriately for the setting. This is fairly well defined. It's not the job you have. It's not the phone you use. It's not the car you drive. It's not sticks you play with. It's not the ball you play. It's not the brand of clothes you wear. It's etiquette. And that includes dressing tactfully. Respectfully. Appropriately.

[RocktimusPryme]

It's not the job you have. It's not the phone you use. It's not the car you drive. It's not sticks you play with. It's not the ball you play. It's not the brand of clothes you wear. It's etiquette. And that includes dressing tactfully. Respectfully. Appropriately.

I can argue because I just dont think that being respectful or "appropriate" has ANY effect on dress in any reasonable manner. I use the term reasonable because yes I would concur that someone wearing a shirt in public that says "**** You Mother" in it is disrespectful and involutarily offensive. just like poor personal hygiene would be. While we should be able to respect a persons difference in clothing taste, horrid body odor is involuntarily offensive. We just have different opinions on what being respectful is I guess. You think its how someone looks. Or at least thats a large part of it. I say how someone looks has almost nothing to do with it. I say its how someone acts, and treats their peers. As far as the work thing goes I chose not to get into it, but I feel the same way. I think I should be able to go to work dressed however I want with my nametag on. But I would still wear the suit anyway even if I got my rule change because I like my suits and I think they look nice. Funny part about all this is for the most part what were are arguing about is guys wearing jeans and t-shirts on the course. Cause face it that would be the biggest change if there were no dress codes. Well thats the choice of casual clothing for probably 75% of the population, and thats a conservative guess. Isnt that a bit elitist? If 3 out of 4 people want to be in my foursome they have to change their ways to conform with my beliefs EDIT Because I forgot a point I wanted to make, and I have to go to work so this is my last point. No I dont think you have a problem with people with tattoos, hardly anybody does once your in person. But thats thing most people are inherintly good, and if they are stuck with you even though they may have formed preconcieved notions about you based on any number of differences you may have from them, you will win them over in a very short time almost inevitably. If I kept track of compliments to rebukes over my ink it would be somewhere in the 1000-2 range over a period of probably 6 years. Again I stress that I do dress just like most of you guys on the golf course so its not myself im protecting. I just respect people rights to where what they want and go where they want to go while wearing it. What I do have a problem with are Preconceived Notions. Forming an opinion of someone before you even know them. And thats what dress codes protect, and thats why Im against them. Dress codes put consumers, and peers in situations where the people surrounding them look just like they are "supposed to" Its a false reality, and it stops people from realizing that theres good people out there from all walks of life. You could put me in a foursome with a south american headhunter in a grass skirt. While I might be intimidated at first, if he treated me friendly, and played the game well we would be friends by the turn. Let someone suprise you with kindness for a change

[Spackler-esque]

Rocktimus, I think, amazingly, we have more in common than not.

As a side note, I am a mild misanthrope. Being a bigot would require that I single out people for disdain for cosmetic or other reasons. Everyone is equal. I just don't care for the majority of people.

We just have different opinions on what being respectful is I guess. You think its how someone looks. Or at least thats a large part of it. I say how someone looks has almost nothing to do with it. I say its how someone acts, and treats their peers.

We have different opinions on what being respectful

on/to a golf course is. The most important thing is, as you say, how an individual treats not only their peers, but those considered above and below them as well. But dress is part of that, like it or not.

Funny part about all this is for the most part what were are arguing about is guys wearing jeans and t-shirts on the course. Cause face it that would be the biggest change if there were no dress codes. Well thats the choice of casual clothing for probably 75% of the population, and thats a conservative guess. Isnt that a bit elitist? If 3 out of 4 people want to be in my foursome they have to change their ways to conform with my beliefs

And I'll admit, jeans and t-shirt are my normal casual. I just think of the golf course as a place where it should be "business casual." Or at least something similar.

I'd compromise on nice jeans, even. But I just don't... like t-shirts somewhere other than the practice range or on a run-of-the-mill muni. This is in NO way a put down of munis. I love'm and they're vital to the survival of golf. But I'll still wear slacks and a nicer shirt to them unless otherwise advised. Edit:

Let someone suprise you with kindness for a change

Well put. And while dress codes may create a false reality, they do allow for this to happen more frequently than would otherwise occur in many settings. It's putting everyone on a level playing field and that helps remove preconceived notions.

I know this is what you're arguing against. Don't you love just re-reading and then banging your head against the wall because you don't know how to convey what exactly you want to say? Argh!

[Guest]

I think a dress code is great for the game. I'm only 15 and i have enough sense and class to dress nice when playing golf. It's supposed to be a gentlemen's game so the way you dress on the course should reflect that. A nice collared shirt, some slacks or khacki shorts, and a belt. It's just common golf sense.

[Fat Slice]

Golf is a game that depends on decorum. People have to follow the rules - a lot of those rules are based on being polite. Take turns, be quiet, fix your marks, etc. Dressing nicely tends to bring out good behavior. Not always, but in general, yes. SO...I am all for it.