Penalty on Pat Perez on 15th?

[Maverick]

I know I'm way late on this (I haven't had time to see it as I recorded it on my DVR) and I did a search here but couldn't find it, but wasn't that supposed to be a penalty on the 15th, par 3, when Perez was chipping on.

You can clearly see that the ball has moved and it looked like Perez was bettering his lie before contact. I have this round saved on my DVR and you can clearly see this movement.

I know there's a ruling as long as the ball returns to it original location. True, it does seem that the ball is secure in it's "nest" but I would have to say that they overall location height of the ball has been modified..no?

MODS: Please merge to the correct thread if there is one.

[iacas]

I know there's a ruling as long as the ball returns to it original location. True, it does seem that the ball is secure in it's "nest" but I would have to say that they overall location height of the ball has been modified..no?

No. I saw this and wondered if someone would point it out. Decision 18/2 applies here. I don't think the ball moved downward.

[jb1982]

I saw it and thought the same thing.

[flanagan]

I'm surprised watching the video. Seems to me he took a really big chance letting his club contact the ground at all, and pressing it even a little bit.

[Maverick]

Ok, if there is no "movement" witht he ball, what about pressing the grass down prior to the shot?

It would seem that that would be improving his lie or shot..

[microcrayfish]

I saw it and did wonder about the ball moving but figured it was there on camera for all to see so it must have been fine if nothing was done. I got the impression that he was more "testing" his lie than trying to improve it, kinda seeing how springy the grass was or something, but I'm not sure if that's allowed either.

[iacas]

Ok, if there is no "movement" witht he ball, what about pressing the grass down prior to the shot?

You're allowed to sole your club so long as the ball doesn't move.

[Laxplayer201092]

Does no one else put the club behind the ball in the rought and do that same move when they play? Its useful to get a feel for how the club will interact with rough, regardless of the practice swings you took. kinda reassuring.

But if that is considered a penalty, i think alot more people would be incurring penalites in their ever day rounds.. But im glad to see that its not.

Brian

[Ben]

Does no one else put the club behind the ball in the rought and do that same move when they play?

I used to until I thought it might be seen as just what this thread has brought up. If I find myself in a situation like this, I try and find a similar patch of grass within the general vicinity to take some practice strokes in.

[Fourputt]

Decision 18/3 applies, as well as 18-2b/5. No penalty.

But he did take a chance that I wouldn't have taken. I'd never have grounded the club in such a situation... I'd have hovered it just as if I was in a hazard. 18/3

18/3 Ball in Fork of Tree Moves in Relation to Ground But Not in Relation to Fork Q. A ball rests in the fork of a branch of a tree. The player climbs the tree to play his next stroke. The branch bends under his weight. Although the ball has moved relative to the ground, it has not moved relative to the fork. Is the ball deemed to have moved? A. The ball is deemed not to have moved since it did not move in relation to the fork of the tree in which it was lodged.

18-2b/5

18-2b/5 When Club Grounded in Grass Q. When is a club considered grounded in long grass? A. When the grass is compressed to the point where it will support the weight of the club.

[uttexas]

Tour pros have been known to do things like this. There was an article written in GD a few years back regarding these tactics. One common one that I see is the following:

Ball in rough, lie is debatable. Tour pro selects 3wood, walks over to ball, grounds club, takes practice swing. Stops, looks around, talks to caddie. Selects different club...long iron. Hits shot.

Also, watch how Tour Pros perform ball drops. They have mastered the art of the drop. I was under the impression that the ball be dropped in a typical manner without imparting spin, etc. Some pros cup the ball in their hand for the drop and perform an almost David Blaine type hand movement prior to releasing it.

Rules are rules, yes, especially in a tournament and especially when golf is proctored by the players themselves. Does this bite them sometimes? Ask Robert De Vincenzo.

[iacas]

Ball in rough, lie is debatable. Tour pro selects 3wood, walks over to ball, grounds club, takes practice swing. Stops, looks around, talks to caddie. Selects different club...long iron. Hits shot.

Yeah, and Tom Watson bitched out Gary Player for doing that a long time ago, and I can't say I've

ever seen it done since. I disagree: Tour Pros don't do this with any regularity at all.

Also, watch how Tour Pros perform ball drops. They have mastered the art of the drop. I was under the impression that the ball be dropped in a typical manner without imparting spin, etc. Some pros cup the ball in their hand for the drop and perform an almost David Blaine type hand movement prior to releasing it.

Huh? If the ball is cupped you can't really spin it. Tour Pros are very conscious of where they drop, either so they can get the right bounce or so they can place the ball where they want, but I've

never seen a pro spin the ball or do anything but drop it.

Rules are rules, yes, especially in a tournament and especially when golf is proctored by the players themselves. Does this bite them sometimes? Ask Robert De Vincenzo.

Poor example: Roberto didn't call a rules infraction on himself, and Bobby Jones enforced the score his playing partner wrote down when he could have decided to change it.

[MiniMoe]

This is one of the legal ways to cheat. Pros do place clubs behind the ball (legal) which improves the lie just a little bit. Some do it with other clubs "to figure out what shot he/she wants to play", some do it with the right club to "get a feel for the shot" The video shows the later. Another way to legally cheat is in a fairway bunker with a really high lip. you can walk up the face to see where the flag is. Smart pros already have an idea of where the flag is so they walk on that line. Now when they get back to their ball, they have nice foot prints in the sand to point the way. After all, they were not trying to mark where the flag was, they were simply finding the flag.

Believe it or not

[Fourputt]

This is one of the legal ways to cheat. Pros do place clubs behind the ball (legal) which improves the lie just a little bit. Some do it with other clubs "to figure out what shot he/she wants to play", some do it with the right club to "get a feel for the shot" The video shows the later. Another way to legally cheat is in a fairway bunker with a really high lip. you can walk up the face to see where the flag is. Smart pros already have an idea of where the flag is so they walk on that line. Now when they get back to their ball, they have nice foot prints in the sand to point the way. After all, they were not trying to mark where the flag was, they were simply finding the flag.

Not.

If they were doing what you say they'd have been pegged on it years ago. If you watch the Perez video on YouTube nothing changed in his lie or ball position. You can watch each blade of grass and they are all still in the same position when he makes his stroke. He took a big risk in what he did, and if the ball had actually moved, it would definitely have been a penalty, but that didn't happen and the video is perfect visual evidence. I'm sorry that you have such a cynical outlook, but your allegations are unfounded.

[iacas]

This is one of the legal ways to cheat. Pros do place clubs behind the ball (legal) which improves the lie just a little bit. Some do it with other clubs "to figure out what shot he/she wants to play", some do it with the right club to "get a feel for the shot" The video shows the later. Another way to legally cheat is in a fairway bunker with a really high lip. you can walk up the face to see where the flag is. Smart pros already have an idea of where the flag is so they walk on that line. Now when they get back to their ball, they have nice foot prints in the sand to point the way. After all, they were not trying to mark where the flag was, they were simply finding the flag.

Not.

Source: Rule 8-2a 8-2. Indicating Line of Play a. Other Than on Putting Green Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one may be positioned by the player on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being made. Any mark placed by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line must be removed before the stroke is made.

You can't make footprints as you've indicated, and I've never seen it done, nor all that "pushing down grass by mulling club choice" stuff, either. As 4P says, you seem awfully cynical.

[flanagan]

Been watching golf, and lots of it, since I was in jr. high. Now, until recent years you never really got the good and varied camera angles on bunker shots we get now, with more cameras on the course, but, I have NEVER, EVER seen a pro mark a line in front of his or her ball with footprints. No way. Any time a camera has panned back for a shot, you see the ball and undisturbed sand in front of it when the ball is addressed. No pro would even take the chance that walking up the sandy hill in front of the ball would disturb the sand and possibly cause the ball to move, or worse. This does not happen.

By the way, if it's legal, it's not cheating, but doing what you are suggesting is illegal and would be called in an instant.

[MSDOGS1976]

When I saw Perez put his wedge behind the ball, I thought he was taking a chance in having the ball move. But I never thought it moved to a different spot. Looked OK to me.