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Tee Restrictions by Handicap


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Should Courses Limit the Back Tees to Low-Handicap Players?  

78 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Courses Limit the Back Tees to Low-Handicap Players?

    • Yes, "seeing the whole course" is pointless when you shoot 115.
    • No, tee choice does not factor into the speed of play.


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On January 22, 2005 at 5:37 PM, Ben said:

Yes, I think tees should be restricted by handicap. Plain and simple. One of the members on the course I work at went and played The Prince Course out in Hawaii and was asked his handicap for just this reason. The course is just too tought from the championsip tees for your average player.

On top of that, I think people who can't break 100 shouldn't be allowed to play during peak hours. Whether you'd like to admit it or not, poor play does affect pace of play.

I disagree, that's just arrogant to say people not breaking 100 can only play restricted hours. I don't break a 100 but I can keep pace, even if it means picking up my ball or just dropping and hitting a ball as opposed to looking for a ball for sake of pace of play. The real issue is knowledge and manners. Many high handicap once or twice a month hacks don't know any better and then there are other players who are just rude and inconsiderate and take too much time regardless of their skill level. 

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2 hours ago, Dave2512 said:

But you have to move to to your ball and play the shot. If you do that 14 times a round and I do everything else the same you are slower. Even if it's 45 seconds a shot that's just over ten minutes. Slower players aren't usually an hour slow or even a half hour slow they're minutes slow. 

Playing for pro money or the importance of the finishing result in college tournaments is a different. The guys in my league are slower than usual when all that's riding on it is where their name falls on the posted results for their flight. We don't have those issues playing for fun Saturday afternoon. 

Courses understand it's not one golfer ten minutes slow that ithe problem is the cumulative effect of many slow golfers. Make the course slightly less challenging everyone plays a little quicker. The slower players won't slow down more at some point being closer to the green means a better miss, means less strokes. 

Actually, he might take less time per shot. Lots more higher handicaps just walk up to the ball take a swish then hit, lower handicaps tend to take more time to setup a shot and execute it. It seems about the same time in total on average.

The fastest players I know are the mid cappers (8-12), we don't anguish over every single shot and putt. We also get to the greens as quickly as any low handicap, but without the anguishing part. So, the premise of the thread doesn't fit us.

The ones that take forever are the clueless ones. Generally speaking, lower handicaps are not clueless, but there are many higher handicaps who play just as fast or faster.

I think it's experience more than skill that makes a player faster or slower.

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47 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Actually, he might take less time per shot. Lots more higher handicaps just walk up to the ball take a swish then hit, lower handicaps tend to take more time to setup a shot and execute it. It seems about the same time in total on average.

Still have to travel to and from the shot until the ball is holed. There is time spent moving even if you don't anguish over the shot. Less strokes is a shorter path, better players advance the ball towards the hole with less interference.

If play A takes two shots to the green and is standing near the green waiting for player B to pitch on he is waiting. If player B doesn't get his pitch inside player A's second shot player B will take 4 strokes to A's 2 before player A can putt. Player A has the advantage of planning a putt as this unfolds. Even if player B just walks to and strikes the ball player A is faster. BTW nobody plays that way. Certainly nobody here that spends hours posting about how much time they spend practicing to get better. Golf isn't chase and hit without thought.

Slow play is rarely due to farting around over the ball. Some players may appear slow if they have Furyk like putting routines or whatever. But none of that is more consuming than looking for errant shots, misuse of carts, chatting to the cart girl, trying to find that shiny new PV1 that you hope to see near the waters edge, paying the price of the blown drive that takes 3 more shots to get near the green...

 

Dave :-)

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23 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Still have to travel to and from the shot until the ball is holed. There is time spent moving even if you don't anguish over the shot. Less strokes is a shorter path, better players advance the ball towards the hole with less interference.

If play A takes two shots to the green and is standing near the green waiting for player B to pitch on he is waiting. If player B doesn't get his pitch inside player A's second shot player B will take 4 strokes to A's 2 before player A can putt. Player A has the advantage of planning a putt as this unfolds. Even if player B just walks to and strikes the ball player A is faster. BTW nobody plays that way. Certainly nobody here that spends hours posting about how much time they spend practicing to get better. Golf isn't chase and hit without thought.

Slow play is rarely due to farting around over the ball. Some players may appear slow if they have Furyk like putting routines or whatever. But none of that is more consuming than looking for errant shots, misuse of carts, chatting to the cart girl, trying to find that shiny new PV1 that you hope to see near the waters edge, paying the price of the blown drive that takes 3 more shots to get near the green...

I'm talking about the ready golf players who know how to play efficiently. High handicap or not, they can still move towards the hole pretty quickly. The time moving from shot to shot is not that bad if they are not clueless. Remember that while most higher handicaps might take more shots to get to the green, those shots are generally shorter and take less time to think about. They generally walk up to the ball and hit PW or some shorter iron.

As long as the golfer is not clueless, they can move pretty fast even if they take more shots to do so.

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57 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Still have to travel to and from the shot until the ball is holed. There is time spent moving even if you don't anguish over the shot. Less strokes is a shorter path, better players advance the ball towards the hole with less interference.

If play A takes two shots to the green and is standing near the green waiting for player B to pitch on he is waiting. If player B doesn't get his pitch inside player A's second shot player B will take 4 strokes to A's 2 before player A can putt. Player A has the advantage of planning a putt as this unfolds. Even if player B just walks to and strikes the ball player A is faster. BTW nobody plays that way. Certainly nobody here that spends hours posting about how much time they spend practicing to get better. Golf isn't chase and hit without thought.

Slow play is rarely due to farting around over the ball. Some players may appear slow if they have Furyk like putting routines or whatever. But none of that is more consuming than looking for errant shots, misuse of carts, chatting to the cart girl, trying to find that shiny new PV1 that you hope to see near the waters edge, paying the price of the blown drive that takes 3 more shots to get near the green...

 

I ride in a cart, it takes all of 5 seconds to get to the next shot.  I think you're using exaggerated situations to make your case but I'm pretty confident that I play a round as fast, if not faster than most guys at your handicap.  

Joe Paradiso

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I voted yes based on my course.  But I think my course is an exception, tips play at 7000yds, 74.8/149 ratings.  Even single digit players should not play our tips.  It's actually not even something we tell players.  They'll figure it out for themselves.  We are a very hilly course.  But, more than that, if you miss the fairway you are in long grass, woods, water, or just lost.  I know distance matters a lot, but accuracy is extremely important here or else you're hitting multiple provisional balls each round.  Players stay away from tips, even ones with big egos, because those egos will be squashed when some holes require a 250yd carry.  Our white tees are much more manageable  at 5800yds, 69.1/129 ratings.  It makes the course much more fun and you'll still see the whole course from there.  So if you are a first timer to the course, I say play whites or grays, and if you are a better golfer, blue tees will still be difficult enough.  I will try to convince everyone to stay off blacks unless you are plus hndcp figures or pro.  I won't force you to, but I've seen people lose a dozen balls on 9 holes because they chose the wrong tee box.

Philip Kohnken, PGA
Director of Instruction, Lake Padden GC, Bellingham, WA

Srixon/Cleveland Club Fitter; PGA Modern Coach; Certified in Dr Kwon’s Golf Biomechanics Levels 1 & 2; Certified in SAM Putting; Certified in TPI
 
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4 minutes ago, phillyk said:

I voted yes based on my course.  But I think my course is an exception, tips play at 7000yds, 74.8/149 ratings.  Even single digit players should not play our tips.  It's actually not even something we tell players.  They'll figure it out for themselves.  We are a very hilly course.  But, more than that, if you miss the fairway you are in long grass, woods, water, or just lost.  I know distance matters a lot, but accuracy is extremely important here or else you're hitting multiple provisional balls each round.  Players stay away from tips, even ones with big egos, because those egos will be squashed when some holes require a 250yd carry.  Our white tees are much more manageable  at 5800yds, 69.1/129 ratings.  It makes the course much more fun and you'll still see the whole course from there.  So if you are a first timer to the course, I say play whites or grays, and if you are a better golfer, blue tees will still be difficult enough.  I will try to convince everyone to stay off blacks unless you are plus hndcp figures or pro.  I won't force you to, but I've seen people lose a dozen balls on 9 holes because they chose the wrong tee box.

That's kind of a self governing system, and part of the reason I voted no. People will converge on the proper tees naturally. You don't really need to enforce something that happens naturally.

A forced 250 yard carry? That's pretty amazing. :-D

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Voted "Yes",

While I understand the idea of "my money I will play from where I want", I have seen too many people playing from the tips because they want to act like a pro.

I have seen hackers play from the tips who dont have the legnth needed. They will spray their drive, barely make the fairway, nub a few balls and card a double bogie all while walking the course.
It is their money and they can spend it how they want, I just dont want to play behind them!

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26 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I ride in a cart, it takes all of 5 seconds to get to the next shot.  I think you're using exaggerated situations to make your case but I'm pretty confident that I play a round as fast, if not faster than most guys at your handicap.  

And I think you are being stubborn to accept less strokes equals faster golf. I certainly am not implying every golfer shooting 90's or whatever is a slow play situation but they are slower, even if just slightly so than someone taking less strokes with similar routines. I'd take that bet, I am the fastest of the fast.

Dave :-)

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2 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

And I think you are being stubborn to accept less strokes equals faster golf. I certainly am not implying every golfer shooting 90's or whatever is a slow play situation but they are slower, even if just slightly so than someone taking less strokes with similar routines. I'd take that bet, I am the fastest of the fast.

For the extra strokes I take, low cappers take way too many practice swings, over analyze shots and waste minutes reading greens and lining up putts.   I play with 8-12 handicappers quite often and I'm constantly waiting on them to take their "perfect shots", especially when money is involved.  

Joe Paradiso

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4 minutes ago, Lihu said:

That's kind of a self governing system, and part of the reason I voted no. People will converge on the proper tees naturally. You don't really need to enforce something that happens naturally.

A forced 250 yard carry? That's pretty amazing. :-D

Well I guess the other side is we have a reputation for being too difficult so golfers will stay away from our course.  It's not difficult so long as you play the proper tees.  So for the sake of trying to have people enjoy their round more and want to come back yes, I'd like to somewhat enforce what tees the play for enjoyment purposes.  But I won't demand such a move.

Philip Kohnken, PGA
Director of Instruction, Lake Padden GC, Bellingham, WA

Srixon/Cleveland Club Fitter; PGA Modern Coach; Certified in Dr Kwon’s Golf Biomechanics Levels 1 & 2; Certified in SAM Putting; Certified in TPI
 
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IDK. I have seen some low hdcprs take longer to play than higher hndcprs. They are slower because they take more time planning their shots, which of course they can pull off. 

I play 2 or 3 times a month with a friend who is a 2 hndcp. He gives me 8 strokes, and still kicks my backside most days. I am always waiting on him. He is very meticulous when planning his shots. Me I just walk to my ball, and hit it again using a very quick presot routine. I have to believe he's not the only very good player who plays like that. 

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33 minutes ago, phillyk said:

Well I guess the other side is we have a reputation for being too difficult so golfers will stay away from our course.  It's not difficult so long as you play the proper tees.  So for the sake of trying to have people enjoy their round more and want to come back yes, I'd like to somewhat enforce what tees the play for enjoyment purposes.  But I won't demand such a move.

Here's a course that still does not enforce playing shorter tees, but they only recommend playing the shorter tees for enjoyment rather than telling a golfer that they don't have the skill to play the back tees. The nickname was "Tierra Tooharda" at one point in time. . .

http://www.tierrarejadagolf.com/

It's better not to "dare" people into paying too far back by stating that only low handicaps can play so and so tees. Just advertise the fun aspects of playing where people feel more comfortable.

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49 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

For the extra strokes I take, low cappers take way too many practice swings, over analyze shots and waste minutes reading greens and lining up putts.   I play with 8-12 handicappers quite often and I'm constantly waiting on them to take their "perfect shots", especially when money is involved.  

But my comparison is using golfers with equal shot routines as the example the variable is just the strokes. Obviously there are slow and fast golfers of every stripe. The point of the OP is move up and it takes less time even if you are slow. That's why courses recommend tees. Unless the slow guys slow down more than usual they still get through faster than usual.

It's not a question of who is slow and who isn't. Cutting strokes saves time. My last 20 has a 13 stroke variation or something. I know I was quicker shooting 72 than I was 85 and I would have done everything the same other than encountering trouble.

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Dave :-)

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10 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

But my comparison is using golfers with equal shot routines as the example the variable is just the strokes. Obviously there are slow and fast golfers of every stripe. The point of the OP is move up and it takes less time even if you are slow. That's why courses recommend tees. Unless the slow guys slow down more than usual they still get through faster than usual.

It's not a question of who is slow and who isn't. Cutting strokes saves time. My last 20 has a 13 stroke variation or something. I know I was quicker shooting 72 than I was 85 and I would have done everything the same other than encountering trouble.

That's true, if you're good fast player it's tough for even a mid handicap come even close to the same playing pace.

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Mentioning handicap is what gets everyone ruffled. I get why courses make tee recommendations, there is enough legit data out there to understand how golfers play. It's not a insult or anything and there are outliers. But if handicap is indicative of the quality of ball striking the higher it is the more poor shots are going to be hit. It doesn't matter how far you sometimes hit the ball.

The point of shortening the course is your miss will be closer to the green, meaning throughout the round you will use shorter clubs for approaches. Nobody hits their 4i with less dispersion than their 6 or 9 or whatever. It will pay time dividends even if small. This is why there are handicap recommendations for tees. The courses aren't trying to change bad habits just minimize mistakes on the way to the hole.

No reason to get twisted about it. Use can use yourself as an example. If you play the same courses regularly think about the times you play a hole well compared to bad. On a wide open course when the only thing controlling your pace is how good or bad you play a hole is he quality of your shots what takes more time.

 

Dave :-)

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21 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Mentioning handicap is what gets everyone ruffled. I get why courses make tee recommendations, there is enough legit data out there to understand how golfers play. It's not a insult or anything and there are outliers. But if handicap is indicative of the quality of ball striking the higher it is the more poor shots are going to be hit. It doesn't matter how far you sometimes hit the ball.

The point of shortening the course is your miss will be closer to the green, meaning throughout the round you will use shorter clubs for approaches. Nobody hits their 4i with less dispersion than their 6 or 9 or whatever. It will pay time dividends even if small. This is why there are handicap recommendations for tees. The courses aren't trying to change bad habits just minimize mistakes on the way to the hole.

No reason to get twisted about it. Use can use yourself as an example. If you play the same courses regularly think about the times you play a hole well compared to bad. On a wide open course when the only thing controlling your pace is how good or bad you play a hole is he quality of your shots what takes more time.

When you make the statement that you are not good enough to play so and so tees, it gets people defensive. It's saying you're not good enough to play from those tees. Even though it's true, most people can't handle it. It's an ego thing, most people like to consider themselves as good golfers, and that perception not going to change until they improve to the point of "Golf Self Awareness".

If a course really wants to enforce a handicap to tees based policy, they can just move up all the tees 30 yards. Most people have no idea how far the tees are anyway. This will make the "big hitters" happy that they can play from the back tee positions even though the tee box was actually placed where the ladies tees normally sit. :-D

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1 hour ago, Dave2512 said:

But my comparison is using golfers with equal shot routines as the example the variable is just the strokes. Obviously there are slow and fast golfers of every stripe. The point of the OP is move up and it takes less time even if you are slow. That's why courses recommend tees. Unless the slow guys slow down more than usual they still get through faster than usual.

It's not a question of who is slow and who isn't. Cutting strokes saves time. My last 20 has a 13 stroke variation or something. I know I was quicker shooting 72 than I was 85 and I would have done everything the same other than encountering trouble.

That's not real world, only in the perfect world of everyone playing ready golf, no one taking practice swings or taking more than 15 seconds to read a putt would you consistently find that a low handicap golfer is faster than a high handicap golfer.  

Using your logic no one should be allowed to walk the course during peak times because, assuming golfers with equal shot routines, the golfers who walk the course are likely to be slower than someone that rides.  

Joe Paradiso

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