Stroke and Distance on a Lost Ball

[iacas]

I don't know how you decide when not to post a score.

Before I play. I'll play a "practice" round, hitting extra shots, etc. Or switch on the third hole if course conditions are dramatically different. You said it was your course IIRC, so you should know the conditions.

When the round begins and the practice green looks nice and so does the first hole do you decide I will post this round then you have a horible hole on #13 and you have seen the course is not in the best of shape do you than decide not to post the score.

No, that's what ESC is for.

the original writers of the rules did not have many wood in which to lose their golf balls.... just thick grass the sheep had not eaten yet.

Be realistic - we're not talking about the original rules of golf here. We're talking about rules written in 1900s. You'd be surprised at how recently some rules were updated.

He can say whatever he wants about his score....I could care less...and you should be of the same mindset.

How much less could you care?

And the point that he can't say he shot 83 or whatever is valid. We care because it's not cool to lie. They're only hurting themselves, but that's another reason why we care - because we care about each other as golfers.

[RC]

Stroke and distance... that is the rule. If we are lax, then I want to start recording a 3&1/2 when a birdie goes in (almost,) but impossibly lips out in a 360 -- that seems equally "unfair." Lipouts that go 270 degrees around the hole would be 3/4s. Perhaps a more compelling rule change would be when a putt goes in the hole, hits the cup bottom and bounces back up, coming to rest on the lip. That has happened to me (bad cup setting in my opinion.) Maybe that should be recorded as a 3&1/4 score on a par 4. Sorry guys, I am just blattering tonight. Need sleep.

[jojoampt]

Well ill be a S.O.B. i HONESTLY did not know that you have to take stroke and distance on a lost ball. I thought only on a shot that goes OB. (Ive only been playing since last year, cut me some slack!) That sucks though because i kind of pride myself on following the rules. (maybe i should ACTUALLY read them!) I get soooo annoyed when im playing with my friends and they hit one OB and just go up and take a drop. I guess im just as bad! I always take a drop on a lost ball. Damn, i feel like a chump. Although, as you can imagine, i kinda play with some hackers (i take it the most seriously out of the group) so no one has ever told me this rule.

[Brakkus]

Actually the maximum penalty for such a serious breach is disqualification, but that can only be applied in a competition. If a player is truly concerned about pace of play (or more likely too embarrassed

It's not embarassment it's holding up the course more when I'm already at a 106 average and then going back to the original spot to play again which holds up more play even further back on the course.

Last time out I shot a 9 and 2 8's on my card so my self esteem doesn't even enter into it when you already are used to a higher score.I've even been encouraged to take another shot for free in this situation but I will always call the penalty so taking a 2 stroke penalty for a lost ball isn't a problem for me during a weekend round with friends. If in competition then it's different,but at least my score reflects my ability whether I return to the spot or not I have still taken my medicine for the error even when I have felt hard done by when the ball has quite obviously landed in a place easily identified.What's happened it's dropped below the level of the rough and you just can't see it. In those situations I haven't taken a provisional because I was certain i would find it when I got there. 5 mins to find it then a 150-200 yard walk back to then walking back to the spot where you came from on a saturday afternoon when you have a specific tee off time because the tees are full. It's common sense,but each to his own.We usually discuss these things before teeing off so no one can then fiddle their score with free drops or mulligans.

[nykfan4life]

If you're a high level player, I can totally understand why you would want to always play stroke and distance. But coming from a high-handicapper point of view, if you didn't hit a provisional because there was no reason to suspect your ball was lost, I see nothing wrong with consulting your partners and dropping a ball. I mean, pace of play is pretty important and it can take a long time to go back and replay a ball (especially if you walk every round like I do). In casual, non-competitive golf, dropping is fine: you play faster, get less stressed, and people behind you are happier.

+1 this is what my high school golf league has as thier rules. stroke, but no distance because it takes too long. I don't really agree with it, but thats what our rules are, and I take adv of it.

[Dewdman42]

Ok, here's what I want to understand that is still not clear to me. If I hit a ball that is lost, then I must go back and hit another one from the same place and there is one stroke penalty. So does that mean that after going back and playing the new ball and hitting it straight down the fairway, will I be laying 2 or 3? 3 seems harsh punishment to me.

[sean_miller]

Ok, here's what I want to understand that is still not clear to me. If I hit a ball that is lost, then I must go back and hit another one from the same place and there is one stroke penalty. So does that mean that after going back and playing the new ball and hitting it straight down the fairway, will I be laying 2 or 3? 3 seems harsh punishment to me.

Me too. That's why I try my best to keep the ball in play.

[Fourputt]

Ok, here's what I want to understand that is still not clear to me. If I hit a ball that is lost, then I must go back and hit another one from the same place and there is one stroke penalty. So does that mean that after going back and playing the new ball and hitting it straight down the fairway, will I be laying 2 or 3? 3 seems harsh punishment to me.

You will be lying three. Not that harsh when you think about it. You lost your ball. It should cost you something for the privilege of continuing to play the hole after losing the ball you hstarted the hole with. After all, Rule 1-1 says that:

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.

Note that it says

a ball, not several balls. There should be a significant penalty for allowing you to substitute a second ball after losing the first one. The penalty should also be enough to inspire you to learn to keep your ball in play so that you avoid such penalties in the future.

[Incognito]

Golf is a very funny sport. Although we ALL play by the same rules of golf, from Pros on down, we don't play by the same rules.

Depending on your playing ability, frequency of play, and dedication to sport (basically where you are in your golf life), our grey scale of interpretation of the rules darkens or lightens accordingly.

If black and white strict rules are your thing, then do it. No ones keeping your score but yourself. If you wanna drop yours near the fairway and give yourself a stroke, then do that.


But btw: If you and I are playing have a bet going, I'm going to be counting your strokes for you as well.

-------

Many a high handicapped golfers do not WANT to hit a provisional.
- Many do not wish to "give up" on the first ball. We all like to think our ball that went OB, hit a tree and came back into play.
- Many do not wish to lose another ball. Rather than see another ball fly OB, I just wanna move forward with the round, save my embarrassment, and hit near the fairway next to you.

[amccarroll]

I didn't know about this rule and had just been playing an approximate drop where I thought the ball was. I've improved a little now but earlier on I don't think I was carrying enough balls in my bag to hit another ball off the tee every time I thought I'd lost a ball.

I think I'll have to go back and put an asterix by some of my previous score cards which weren't looking too healthy to begin with!

[zeg]

For those of you worrying about pace of play, outside of competition as long as you finish 13 holes, you can post a valid score without even playing the other 5 holes---just fill in par + your handicap strokes. So I wouldn't worry about the difference between proper stroke and distance and taking a drop with *two* penalty strokes. After all, if you don't hole out on a partially completed hole, the handicap rules indicate you're supposed to post your most likely score. In most cases, taking a reasonable drop and then holing out is a fine way to estimate that score. But remember you've gotta take two penalty strokes: one for the stroke, and one for the distance.

If it's a competition, then you've got to play by the real rules though. I don't think they're unfair. Harsh? Yes. But completely sensible. As frustrating as it is to lose a ball in the fairway, when I honestly think back, that's a relatively rare occurrence. It just feels like it happens all the time because it hurts so bad when it does.

[Ignorant]

For those of you worrying about pace of play, outside of competition as long as you finish 13 holes, you can post a valid score without even playing the other 5 holes---just fill in par + your handicap strokes. So I wouldn't worry about the difference between proper stroke and distance and taking a drop with *two* penalty strokes. After all, if you don't hole out on a partially completed hole,

As I'm living and playing in Europe I am following the EGA regulations istead of USGA but I am interested to understand those of USGA as well. As far as I have understood the hcp index in USGA is calculated by taking an average of 10 best rounds from past 20 and multiplying that with a factor of 0.94 or something.

Now, that value is quite far from the player's average and thus from the 'most likely score'. So my question is how close to the correct one the hcp index of a player would be who most of the time uses this '13 holes + most likely score' method?

[The Recreational Golfer]

I believe there was a time in the early 1950s when the OB penalty was distance only. If you thought you hit one out, you played a provisional ball and it was your second shot, not your third. That seems fair to me. It would be interesting to know what the USGA's reasoning was at the time for changing to stroke and distance. I don't know. It might have been as simple as bringing USGA rules into conformity with R&A; rules.

Same for the lost ball. Distance only seems to be more fair.

[The Recreational Golfer]

See http://www.ruleshistory.com/lost.html for the history of these two penalties.

[Shindig]

Now, that value is quite far from the player's average and thus from the 'most likely score'. So my question is how close to the correct one the hcp index of a player would be who most of the time uses this '13 holes + most likely score' method?

Most likely score and unplayed hole are two different things.

Most likely score handles things like when players ignore rule 1-1 and don't play from the tee to the green, such as by taking gimmes in stroke play. If you pick up from six inches away, well, you most likely would have made the putt anyway, so it's fine under most likely for the handicap purposes. Same if someone decides to play goalie over your 2' putt. Net par is for holes that were completely unplayed: if daylight (or a call from the missus) interrupts you on the walk to the 17th tee, fill in net pars for 17 and 18 and post your score. Same goes if you skip a hole for whatever reason. It's not that net par is your most likely score, although it's probably not too far off on most holes. I guess this would be an interesting experiment: play a few rounds and keep track of how close your scores on each hole are to net par.

[Shorty]

I believe there was a time in the early 1950s when the OB penalty was distance only. If you thought you hit one out, you played a provisional ball and it was your second shot, not your third. That seems fair to me. It would be interesting to know what the USGA's reasoning was at the time for changing to stroke and distance. I don't know. It might have been as simple as bringing USGA rules into conformity with R&A; rules.

I am totally at a loss aas to how you can think that is fair. I think it would be totally unfair. What you are suggesting means that there is no a penalty at all. It is the same as finding your ball in a bad spot, being lucky to do it and then chipping it back to the middle of the fairway, assuming that's where your provisional went. Yoiu are lying two in both scenarios. Ridiculous.

If you hit a ball into a spot where it can get lost, there needs to be a penalty if you do lose it.

[zeg]

As I'm living and playing in Europe I am following the EGA regulations istead of USGA but I am interested to understand those of USGA as well. As far as I have understood the hcp index in USGA is calculated by taking an average of 10 best rounds from past 20 and multiplying that with a factor of 0.94 or something.

Well, I'm not sure whether you're asking about most likely score or net par score, since they're both used in different circumstances as Shindig addressed. The net par will probably have a minimal impact on your handicap. Yes, it's true that net par is better than you'll do on average, but not by much. Since you bias yourself toward your best scores when computing your handicap index, it means you've got a few rounds in there that are likely to be better due to a net par assumed score instead of a real score, but you will fairly often (~25% of the time) play to net par anyway, so I think the overall skew is really small. If anything it'll give you a lower handicap than you deserve, which is a penalty, so it's in your interest to play out. Seems like a reasonable arrangement.

I'm not really sure about the estimated score, since I don't worry about it much as I don't keep a real handicap. My approach would be to stick to a conservative assumption---if I teed into the fairway or playable rough and then picked up, I'd assume net par or better. If I found myself behind a tree and called it quits because I couldn't see any more, I might take net par +1 just because I knew I'd have to chip out. If I was already at 7 and not on the green, I'd go ahead and take the ESC limit; otherwise, I'd probably never assume much worse than net par just so there would be no questions about sandbagging. But obviously it's best just to go ahead and finish out every hole...

[The Recreational Golfer]

I am totally at a loss aas to how you can think that is fair. I think it would be totally unfair. What you are suggesting means that there is no a penalty at all. It is the same as finding your ball in a bad spot, being lucky to do it and then chipping it back to the middle of the fairway, assuming that's where your provisional went. Yoiu are lying two in both scenarios. Ridiculous.

I'm not sure what you think I meant, but what I was saying was that the penalty would be distance. If you hit your tee shot out of bounds, you would hit another one from the tee, not from where it went out of bounds. If you hit one out from the fairway, you hit your next from the same spot, not where it went out.

Or if you would like, you could go up to where it went out and hit another, adding a one stroke penalty, just like if you had hit one into the lake. I just don't see how having different penalties, one more severe than the other, for hitting the same wild slice, is fair, dependent on where the ball lands.