Kenny Perry: Caught Cheating or Not?

[Andy_Mac]

You would have to look at different angles to really see. It seems to me that if he was tamping down as close to the ball as it looked the he would have had a real hard time not touching the ball. As thick as that rough is and if the ball was as buried as it looked before the move grass would actually be touching the ball and you wouldnt be able to clear that much of it without touching the thing. You would also have to see where he actually lines up at address and where his swing is to see if he improved the area. Where he tamped down could have been 4 inches back and slightly inside of his lie and have absolutely no impact on the area around the ball.

In any case, you cant just look at one angle/shot of something like this and call a guy a cheater... thats a serious accusation that requires a bit more proof than a low res video from a questionable angle.

[Ben]

Watch this video. It's from the FBR playoff.

I used to do that quite a bit, but I've been weening myself off that move over the past year or so. There were numerous situations in my open qualifier just today were I could have done that, but chose to man up and play it correctly. I think it was easier to pull off those shots today because I was forced to make a good stroke through the thickest of rough knowing that a didn't have a clear path to the ball.

[TheNatural]

simply resting the club behind the ball and the grass compressed and did not rebound, the man can ground his club cant he?>
I do it all the time to see where the dirt is and sometimes it stays sometimes not. I think we need to put camera's in the players shoes.

[DaveLeeNC]

One really grainy video taken at a very poor angle (you can't even tell if the 'better view of the ball' was due to a better lie or a change an inch or more behind the ball). And the rules officials have looked at this in detail and expressed no concern (as have other tour players).

From a "he is guilty" perspective, that isn't much to go on.

dave

[iacas]

simply resting the club behind the ball and the grass compressed and did not rebound, the man can ground his club cant he?

Two things:

1) You're only "grounding your club" as part of taking your address position. He was not taking his address position in that video. 2) The player "must not" improve the lie of the ball. Any act becomes illegal if you improve your lie - accidentally, without intent, anything. It's a slight exaggeration to compare the two, but try this on for size: "Simply walking around, on his feet, with his golf shoes on, the man can put his foot down right behind the golf ball can't he?" That is to say normal acts (like grounding your club) become illegal acts when certain criteria are met. In this case, "the player must not improve the lie of his ball." If the lie was improved, the rule is broken. In fact, it doesn't matter if it was due to grounding the club even if it was during the address position. Imagine there's a big dandelion right behind your ball, and if you ground your club a certain way while addressing the ball you can move it out of the way. That'd be illegal. The rules offer no "right" to ground your club. The privilege that the rule allows you to ground your club (a privilege that's suspended in hazards already) is superseded by the "must not improve the lie" rule. Again, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of the camera angle, but if it's at all like what it looks like, he cheated.

[saltman]

Had he not stepped away from the ball but waggled a couple of times, would it still be a violation?

I have looked at this about 10 times and the more I do, the more I think its a violation. I don't want to call him a cheater, because to me that implies intent. I can't determine intent here, but I do think it rules violation. Had he not stepped away from the ball, I am not so sure.

[DaveLeeNC]

Take a look at the close-up/still of the ball at the very end of the clip. From what I can tell this was taken looking between Kenny's legs (you can see his shadow still moving) after he alledged incident.

It doesn't even look like the same lie.

dave

[ItsAllRelative]

Looks to me like he improved his lie, as you can see more of the ball after he gets done "grounding his club."

[Jay-Bird]

I think he cheated unintentionally. Most people do that little tap down the grass move all the time. Most people probably think it's legal. Pro's should know better.

[Leftygolfer]

Then why wasn't he disqualified. They reviewed it and he wasn't.

[HSip]

I think he cheated unintentionally. Most people do that little tap down the grass move all the time. Most people probably think it's legal.

Then why wasn't he disqualified. They reviewed it and he wasn't.

So should the officials reviewing the issue. I like Kenny Perry but it sure looked like he improved his lie. Maybe his "nice guy" image helped him a bit.

[Fat Slice]

I think all golfers should try hard to NOT improve their lie, even 'accidentally'. Just because it's an oft-ignored rules break doesn't mean it's not cheating! If they want to allow it, they should change the rules.

(I still think the Perry video is inconclusive - this is a general comment)

[Elvisliveson]

Then why wasn't he disqualified. They reviewed it and he wasn't.

Because it seems to be common practice among all tour pros, like Charlie Hoffman alluded to.

At the LPGA Sybase this week, which I attended in person, I saw all the big names (Creamer, Kerr, Pressel, Gulbis, Lincicome, Ochoa, etc...) do it to some degree. There seems to be the perception, however misguided it may be, that it's not a rules violation unless the ball moves.

[TheNatural]

Did the ball move?

[Elvisliveson]

Did the ball move?

No, not that anyone can tell. But his lie did improve, which is also a rules violation. But like I said there seems to exist the misconception that unless the position of the ball shifts, there is no infraction.

[Leftygolfer]

I always sole the club to see where it is sitting relative to ground before I take my practice swings. I want to give it the best shot at judging it correctly. So if every piece of grass doesn't go back exactly as it was before I did this I am in rules violation?

[Elvisliveson]

I always sole the club to see where it is sitting relative to ground before I take my practice swings. I want to give it the best shot at judging it correctly. So if every piece of grass doesn't go back exactly as it was before I did this I am in rules violation?

Only if your lie improves. In Perry's case it was acknowledged that it did, because he managed to tamp down a huge tuft of grass that would have gotten between his club and the ball. They way they got around disqualifying him was to say he didn't do it intentionally, which I never heard of before.

[dcaput02]

The rules offer no "right" to ground your club. The privilege that the rule allows you to ground your club (a privilege that's suspended in hazards already) is superseded by the "must not improve the lie" rule.

actually it seems the rules do give a right to ground your club lightly even if it does improve your lie:

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play A player must not improve or allow to be improved: • the position or lie of his ball, • the area of his intended stance or swing, • his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or by any of the following actions: • pressing a club on the ground, However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs: • in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball, • in fairly taking his stance, • in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made, so the player incurs no penalty if the action (being improving your lie) occurs when grounding your club lightly when addressing the ball. of course perry was not addressing his ball when grounding his club. Then there is this quote which just seems completely wrong from a chief referee. Kenny wasn't addressing his ball, and where is intent mentioned in the rules here? Got a new excuse: Well i didn't intend to knock those branches down from that tree during my practice swing... John Paramor, chief referee of the European PGA Tour, viewed the video and rendered his judgment: Not guilty. "The fact is the player is allowed to put his club behind the ball, otherwise he would never be allowed to address his ball in any circumstance," Paramor told Donnegan. "As soon as any player puts his club on the grass behind the ball, then the grass will be flattened. The issue is, is there excessive pressing down with the club? Looking at this, I don't think Kenny Perry did use excessive pressure when he put his club behind the ball. It does look bad, it does look like the lie was improved but, as long as there was no intent to do so, and I don't think there was, then it is not a penalty."