AP report: LPGA Commish asked to resign by players

[Chief Broom]

Calm down. "Uncalled for" would mean it was somehow across the line, like it was racist or something.

I'm not upset or mad at the poster I quoted.

What if I started a thread about how the muni I play has been over run by faceless Koreans. Wouldn't that be getting kind of close to being a racist statement? By calling what was said "uncalled for" I was pointing out that, regardless of intent (and I tried to communicate to the poster that I did get what he was saying), it was getting a little too close to a racist statement. The fact that many LPGA events are being won by Koreans is an indicator of the demographics of golf in America. Our colleges are practically giving away golf scholarships to women due to title 9 issues because there is a shortage in qualified applicants, and I don't think this is because of a lack of involvement by Americas in the LPGA. It's because American women really aren't that interested in golf. I don't think that Asians doing well in the LPGA is helping that situation but it isn't causing it either.

[pittpanther]

First of all, yes, length off the tee does make them better players (But it doesn't make women's golf less watchable.) Secondly, even in the short game, male tour players are significantly better than female tour players.

Well, see what happens when I ass.u.me?

I'll look into PGA vs LPGA stats - I always "assumed" that other than length, stats such as fairways, GIR, Scrambling, Sand Saves, Putts per Round, etc, would be equivalent across the boys and the girls. I agree with you that length off the tee is irrelevant to the LPGA being watchable. What's interesting to me - I would think that most amateurs have a game that's closer to an LPGA pro than a PGA pro. I would think that a guy could watch an LPGA match and say "wow, I might be able to hit that shot." Whereas watching a PGA pro carry a lake or ravine at 270 yards is a fantasy for most guys.

[iacas]

First off, before I respond, here's a good column from Ron Sirak (yeah, you may have to read that twice - I said "a good column from Ron Sirak) that's worth a reading:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/...ens_sirak_0707 Now on to the responses...

Do you really believe the bolded part of the comment above? Other than length off the tee, are the men particularly better than the women? Or is length off the tee enough to be considered "better?

It's not length alone. Men have more shots. Most women hit a standard-height draw. A lot of the shots men have that women don't are around the greens - I think Annika did wonders for her game when she hung out with Tiger and learned some of his short game shots. From what I hear and the little I've seen, LPGA players don't seem to work on their short game nearly as much as the men. Maybe because they play at tournaments that don't really have good short-game practice areas (the one at the Jamie Farr was kind of pathetic, but at least they had one).

And their putting, oh, don't get me started on their putting. My brother-in-law Brandon always says he "Sallied" (as in Sally, a girl's name) the ball when he leaves a putt short. If that were literal, 90% of the LPGA Tour players would be named Sally. Only a handful regularly seem to get the ball to the hole with any pace. And hey, I'm a "die it in the hole" guy myself, but even I try to get every putt a foot by the hole or so.

What if I started a thread about how the muni I play has been over run by faceless Koreans. Wouldn't that be getting kind of close to being a racist statement?

Well, those players aren't being paid to play in public. Paid, I might ad, because people are interested in watching them play. So you'd never add "faceless" to that statement, because it's not a situation where you'd expect them to have a face.

And no, I wouldn't consider that "racist." I'd consider it stating a fact. Now, if you called 'em some slang term or something, well, that'd be something else entirely. But they're Asians. Calling them that - and describing their personality (or lack thereof) as "faceless" - isn't even close to racism in my book.

The fact that many LPGA events are being won by Koreans is an indicator of the demographics of golf in America. Our colleges are practically giving away golf scholarships to women due to title 9 issues because there is a shortage in qualified applicants, and I don't think this is because of a lack of involvement by Americas in the LPGA. It's because American women really aren't that interested in golf. I don't think that Asians doing well in the LPGA is helping that situation but it isn't causing it either.

No, I don't think it's quite that simple. I think that the culture in Korea has a lot to do with it. I think the fact that they don't have to go to school more than once every five days (or something like that) has something to do with it, too. I think what you've said is part of the situation, but it's not the entirety of it.

Either way you cut it, the "Asian Invasion" (not my term, but we all know what that means) is something either Bivens or her soon-to-be replacement will have to deal with.

[Chief Broom]

Either way you cut it, the "Asian Invasion" (not my term, but we all know what that means) is something either Bivens or her soon-to-be replacement will have to deal with.

Agreed. And they'll need to come up with something better than the pie in their face English only rule.

[PEZGolf]

Carolyn Bivens is TOAST. Good riddance. Let them hire someone decent, with a one year contact, NOT mulit-year, like Ms. Bivens had. What a joke that is! If you are any good, you want only a one year contract.

[Awsi Dooger]

FWIW, I remember staring at the word faceless after I finished my post but before it was submitted. I realized it looked a bit harsh and I considered editing it. That would have been a poor decision. Faceless fit. The subject required brief and blunt instead of softened and wandering.

There's always a danger of that word taken too literally, with emphasis on "face", but the best definition, "without individual identity or character," applies to the Korean female golfers better than any description I can summon.

It wouldn't be problematic if a few distinct Koreans were dominating the leaderboard, like Se Ri Pak a decade ago. I remember attending an event at Desert Inn specifically to watch her. "She has legs like a tank," I reported to my friends in the sportsbook. Jiyai Shin has that type of potential, a heart tugging story and standout frame and game. She is immediately recognizable on a camera shot and has a chance to be very popular. Too many others blend in as the Yi or Choi of the week. That may be unfair, but not much. I follow every week and can't keep track. It's actually easier on the Duramed Futures Tour, where the excellent communications director Lisa Mickey runs frequent features and interviews with the Asians and other foreign players. I learn more there than on LPGA.com or LPGA telecasts.

[Awsi Dooger]

Do you really believe the bolded part of the comment above? Other than length off the tee, are the men particularly better than the women? Or is length off the tee enough to be considered "better?

The women can't putt worth a damn, as has already been pointed out in this thread. I've bet the head-to-head PGA matchups for 20+ years and used putting stats as a major resource. Once LPGA matchups were occasionally offered by the Imperial Palace and a few other spots in the mid to late '90s, I toyed around with it, using the same theories. It was stunning how poor the putting stats were. I'd never heard that emphasized, on LPGA coverage or anywhere in the sports media. But it was ridiculous. The Putts Per Round were at least a full shot higher for women, which meant PGA bottom feeders in that stat would have threatened the top of LPGA numbers. I haven't studied it as much in recent years but I doubt anything has changed.

Of course, part of that belongs to inferior short game, leaving more difficult putts to begin with.

[iacas]

Found this interesting:

Source: http://www.golfweek.com/story/lpga-news-070709
Other players present at the dinner included Lorena Ochoa, Paula Creamer, Morgan Pressel, Natalie Gulbis, Cristie Kerr, Yani Tseng and Michelle Wie. It’s unclear which players joined Pettersen in signing the letter.

So either the LPGA players recognize the importance of Michelle Wie to their Tour, she's finally become an accepted member of the Tour (accepted as a peer, I mean), or a combination of both.

[RemyM]

For those of you that think the Women can't play, watch the US Open and realize that the USGA has said the setup they are playing has a course rating of 79.8 and a slope of 145.

[RemyM]

Looks like she's done.
http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/...out_sirak_0709

[CarlSpackler]

Looks like she's done.

I heard that on TGC last night. It sounds like they just need to negotiate the terms of her departure. I'm sure she will end up with a wad of cash.

[RCF]

The article cited that: According to a source in tournament management, a general agreement with Bivens on financial terms was reached late Wednesday.

What is the process for selecting a new commissioner?

[iacas]

What is the process for selecting a new commissioner?

Interim commissioner, then the players or the board either form a search committee or they hire an outside group to be a search committee.

Probably. Obviously I can't say for sure, but that's generally how things go. I just hope they don't wait so long as they did to choose Bivens. Took 'em a long time and look who they ended up with. Someone with vision, but someone who couldn't deviate from that vision. Lotta good that did 'em.

[Chas]

How embarrassing for all concerned.

Note definition b) in Merriam Webster:
"To involve in financial difficulty".

[RemyM]

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. (AP) — Carolyn Bivens is out as commissioner of the LPGA Tour, and Marsha Evans will take over as acting commissioner while the organization looks for a replacement.

Bivens, whose tenure began in 2005, came under pressure when some players wrote a letter to the LPGA Tour's board of directors calling for her resignation. The LPGA Tour announced her departure Monday.

Evans served on the LPGA commissioner's advisory council in 2007 and 2008, and began serving on the board this year. She is a former Naval officer who reached the rank of rear admiral.

The LPGA will now begin searching for a full-time commissioner. The organization also has appointed former star Annika Sorenstam as an adviser to the board or directors.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...cPdVQD99DMM8G1

[iacas]

Yeah, but this doesn't seem very promising:
http://blogs.golf.com/presstent/2009...-her-own-.html

Source: Article Linked
The [Red Cross] board's executive committee was unhappy with her communication and collaboration with the 50-member Board of Governors and … the board believed she needed to change her "command-and-control" management style.

[DonW]

Yeah, but this doesn't seem very promising:

With the turmoil that will follow the ouster of Bivens this style may be what is needed to get things back on track short term, and I'm thinking whoever comes in long term will have an easier time taking charge of staff when they haven't been allowed to do as they please during the shake up. No business expert but have experienced these type of turnovers more than once and things always went better when someone came in and took a firm hold of the reins immediately.

[colin007]

just a quick comment about the use of "faceless" - maybe the offence is that people might take it to mean that all asians look the same, like how some (racist) people say that all blacks look the same?