Male Scratch Golfer on the LPGA Tour

[neophyte]

Why don't the best LPGA women Qualify for the US Open and play with the men?

Would the #1 LPGA player accept an invitation to the Masters?

[iacas]

Why don't the best LPGA women Qualify for the US Open and play with the men?

Why would they?

[neophyte]

Then why do we have these discussions?

[David in FL]

Then why do we have these discussions?

Because people continue to misunderstand the enormous disparity between the men's game and that of the women...... It's not sexist, it just is.

[rkim291968]

Why don't the best LPGA women Qualify for the US Open and play with the men?

Would the #1 LPGA player accept an invitation to the Masters?

Because they would make a complete fool out of themselves, i.e, will miss cut by big margin.    Wie missed all the cuts in men's tournament she played, many by huge margin.   Even Anika missed a cut during top of her career.

But the top LPGA ladies are still good.  Ko has 23 under par round going as I speak.   In Bee Park had 99 bogey free streak that was broken recently.   No scratch male golfer  will ever come close to that (by definition of being "scratch").

[x129]

Why don't the best LPGA women Qualify for the US Open and play with the men?

Would the #1 LPGA player accept an invitation to the Masters?

The same reason why scratch golfers don't show up and qualify for the US open. Because they are not good enough.  Just because the LPGA gals  are +3 golfers who can spank the scratch golfer 9 times out of 10, doesn't mean they have a shot against the top half of the the PGA  who are +6s.  If the top LPGA gals played the PGA tour for a full season, they might make a cut or two but they wouldn't be remotely competitive. If a male scratch golfer played the LPGA tour for a seaon, they might make a cut but again they wouldn't be competitive.

[neophyte]

Royal Poinciana Invitational

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The Royal Poinciana Invitational was a golf tournament on the LPGA Tour in 1961 and 1962. ^[1] It was played at Palm Beach Golf Club in Palm Beach, Florida . The course was a par-3 course.

In 1961, the field consisted of 24 men and women, both amateurs and professionals. ^{[2] [3]} The tournament was 54 holes and won by Louise Suggs by one stroke over local pro Dub Pagan. ^[4] Sam Snead was third, two shots behind.

In 1962, the field consisted of Sam Snead and 14 LPGA golfers and was played over 72 holes. ^[5] Snead won by five strokes over Mickey Wright , making him the only man to win an official LPGA Tour event. ^[6]

What about all the PGA pros that Michelle Wie and Annika Sorenstam scored better than on the PGA tour.  Are those men not good enough to play on the PGA?

[iacas]

If a male scratch golfer played the LPGA tour for a seaon, they might make a cut but again they wouldn't be competitive.

I disagree, and don't feel as though you've really read this thread.

Your argument above boils down to "because I think so" and doesn't respond to or acknowledge the points made by others.

Again, men's handicap ratings are about six strokes better than women's from the same yardages (or vice versa, depending on how you want to think of it). The guy is effectively a +6 women's golfer. +6s (men) do reasonably well on the PGA Tour.

The fall-off in talent is steep on the LPGA.

P.S. Michelle Wie played her home course and still MCed. Annika played a short course that minimized her disadvantage and… still MCed. Additionally nobody is talking about the best of the best on the LPGA Tour or saying the guy would WIN or CONTEND for events.

[Shorty]

Why don't the best LPGA women Qualify for the US Open and play with the men?

Would the #1 LPGA player accept an invitation to the Masters?

[rkim291968]

A typical PGA tournament has about 160 players.  For a top LPGA player making a cut means, she has to beat about 80 men or so while playing 7500+ yard courses.  The LPGA player would have the shortest drive average in the field, and will be facing green speed & hole locations she isn't used to.   I don't see any LPGA player physically capable of making a cut.    Michelle Wie could not qualify for US Men's Open by a huge margin.   I think she once finished dead last in a men's tournament.

[Shorty]

I think she once finished dead last in a men's tournament.

Wie he missed the cut by one shot in the Sony Open and was 14 at the time, shooting  72 and 68. In other words, she missed beating half the field by a shot or two.

Probably not an occasion appropriate for mocking the womens' game.

[acerimusdux]

I would think that a scratch golfer would need to shoot under the course rating at least 1/4 of the time to offset the scores above the course rating in the lower half of all his scores? Otherwise the math doesn't add up. So, a CR and par of 72 would mean that the scratch golfer will shoot under 72 1/4 of the time?

Close, but I think the rule of thumb is you shoot your handicap or better 1/5 to 1/4 of the time. For an exactly "scratch" golfer, the CR is his course handicap. So his average score is likely more than 2 strokes above that.

I think I mentioned above that the average men's CR for the tournaments the LPGA has played this year was right about 72, so the scratch male would have luikely had a scoring average in the 74-74.5 range. Well this week, at the Founder's Cup, they are finally playing one of the easier courses. Distance is 6583, but it's Arizona, so it plays shorter.  The men's CR is 70.3 from 6675 yards, and the LPGA is playing it at 92 yards less than that, so figure about a 69.9 CR.

However, the scores reflect that. To make the cut this weekend, you had to shoot a 142 the first two days, so averaging just above a stroke over CR.  If you did that for 3 days, you'd currently be at 216, in 80th place. But the odds of the scratch golfer shooting those two good rounds in a row to make that cut are only about 1 in 6. His average score for two rounds would be more like 144, just missing the cut.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

I think she once finished dead last in a men's tournament.

I think she missed the cut by one shot and was 15 at the time, I think. In other words missed beating half the field by a shot or two.

Probably not an occasion appropriate for mocking the womens' game.

Dug this up from the net.   The following is Wie's PGA tour record.   She came close, missing a cut by one stroke as Shorty states.   I must say, if she came that close, maybe, others can make a cut.

2004 (14 years old)

• PGA Tour: Sony Open, 72-68--140

2005 (15 years old)

• PGA Tour: Sony Open, 75-74--149
• John Deere Classic, 70-71--141

2006 (16 years old)

• PGA Tour: Sony Open, 79-68--147
• PGA Tour: John Deere Classic, 77-WD
• PGA Tour: 84 Lumber Classic, 77-81--158

2007 (17 years old)

• PGA Tour: Sony Open, 78-76--154

2008 (18 years old)

• PGA Tour: Reno-Tahoe Open, 73-80--153

[bubble]

Why don't the best LPGA women Qualify for the US Open and play with the men?

Would the #1 LPGA player accept an invitation to the Masters?

women have played mens event.

courses are longer though. Have you seen many men make it on tour with 230 yard drives ?

I've played volley ball with women who are much better than me yet having a net at 2,43 meters is different from 2,20 meters high.

[Osmond]

Agree, and I would even take it further that 150 for anyone is pretty good for a novice. Most men start off about the same, 150 yards, it they're lucky. . .

This is off topic but a man with any athletic ability does not start at 150 yards.

[Lihu]

Close, but I think the rule of thumb is you shoot your handicap or better 1/5 to 1/4 of the time. For an exactly "scratch" golfer, the CR is his course handicap. So his average score is likely more than 2 strokes above that.

Then he's not scratch, the math doesn't work out. How do you get 0 from an average of any set of numbers above it? The scratch golfer has to shoot at least a few scores lower than the CR in order to get his average at 0.

If we take an average course that has a CR of 72 with a par of 72 it would also be approximately 6600 yards.

So, let's take a set of scores on that course from a particular golfer: 73; 75; 74; 72; 74; 72; 75; 72; 74; 72; 74; 74; 75; 73; 74; 74; 73; 74; 74; 75  the average of the best 10 will be 72.9 and the raw differential will be 0.77 (given a slope rating of approximately 130 which corresponds to a CR of 72) and the HC calculated will be 0.745 and not 0***. In order for this golfer to be scratch, he would need to shoot something like: 72; 72; 72; 72; 73; 71; 71; 74; 71; 71 on his best 10 scores to barely get to scratch. His average score would then be 73.21 which would have this male scratch tied at something like 67th on the LPGA Tour+++.

In my example, our scratch golfer shot 4 scores at par and 4 scores just below it.

***I used the spreadsheet I use to verify my own handicap.

+++ http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/golf/averages.asp?tour=LPGA&rank;=13

[acerimusdux]

Then he's not scratch, the math doesn't work out. How do you get 0 from an average of any set of numbers above it? The scratch golfer has to shoot at least a few scores lower than the CR in order to get his average at 0.

If we take an average course that has a CR of 72 with a par of 72 it would also be approximately 6600 yards.

So, let's take a set of scores on that course from a particular golfer: 73; 75; 74; 72; 74; 72; 75; 72; 74; 72; 74; 74; 75; 73; 74; 74; 73; 74; 74; 75  the average of the best 10 will be 72.9 and the raw differential will be 0.77 (given a slope rating of approximately 130 which corresponds to a CR of 72) and the HC calculated will be 0.745 and not 0***. In order for this golfer to be scratch, he would need to shoot something like: 72; 72; 72; 72; 73; 71; 71; 74; 71; 71 on his best 10 scores to barely get to scratch. His average score would then be 73.21 which would have this male scratch tied at something like 67th on the LPGA Tour+++.

In my example, our scratch golfer shot 4 scores at par and 4 scores just below it.

***I used the spreadsheet I use to verify my own handicap.

+++ http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/golf/averages.asp?tour=LPGA&rank;=13

Even PGA Tour pros aren't that consistent. You are giving these guys a standard deviation just over one stroke, those scores aren't realistic.

A more realistic set of scores might be something like: 75, 72, 79, 73, 73, 71, 74, 78, 69, 76, 74, 74, 72, 76, 73, 76, 70, 73, 75, 72, 77

That's a scratch golfer on a course with a 72 CR.

[acerimusdux]

Or another example:

74,71,76,78,72,75,75,73,76,76,73,77,77,72,74,69,75,71,78,73

That's a scratch golfer (handicap of .17) on a course with a 72 CR, with a scoring average of 74.2, with only 25% of scores at 72 or better, and standard deviation of about 2.6.

And keep in mind we haven't considered ESC, either. If we add to the above scores for handicap purpoese, that out golfer has one or two holes in 20 rounds where he scored worse than double bogey, that won't change his handicap, but will increase his average score a bit.