Male Scratch Golfer on the LPGA Tour

[rkim291968]

Rkim,

Once again you're only stating opinion. You are in fact wrong. Only 2 ...that's TWO LPGA players average over 270yds. And only 1 of them are in the current top ten.

You like others continue to ignore that distance is not the only advantage the men have. Once again read this clearly THE GREENS ARE SLOWER on LPGA courses than on the PGA. Why?

If the women are big hitters as you claim, then they could have just as much success on the PGA as Zach Johnson right? Please suggest at what level you feel a male golfer would have to be in order to be successful on the LPGA?

If you think a PGA touring pro would get beat by the top girls playing from their tees..you're delusional. So tell us...how good would a guy have to be?

VInsk,

When did I ever say a PGA player can be beat by LPGA player?   You are making up facts to prove your point against me.   I have been saying many times in this trhead  that a man scratch golfer can make a cut at LPGA but not beat the top LPGA player.   By claiming that I am delusional to say a PGA tour player can be beat by top LPGA player (which I didn't), you lost what remaining credibility you had.

BTW, on many LPGA tournament, some players hit routinely over 290 yards.   Their official average is much lower like PGA tour official records.   If you understand how PGA & LPGA records drive average, you would know.   To give you a PGA tour example, Tiger in his best days, his official drive average was 300.   Do you believe his average is truly 300?   That average includes on holes that he hits his 3i.   Do some research of your own please.  It's not that hard to do.

[Vinsk]

@DrvFrShow Well said. That's what I'm irked at. I'm unreasonable about this, but it started for me after hearing Judy Rankin continuously make comments how the girls are better than the men at putting. This is absolutely false. And her meager attempt to justify soaking the greens at Pinehurst had nothing to do with the men just being better was embarrassing. Shorter tees? Fine. But everything else needs to be equal.

[DrvFrShow]

Because I think it's sexism for them to tone it down like that. I think the women can be every bit as good as the men with their short games. Right now with the slower greens there's no reason to step it up. Why should I spend a ton of time honing my game for super fast greens when i don't have to play on them? It doesn't make sense. Women can be every bit as good as men on the putting green. It just takes practicing on those kinds of greens.

[Lihu]

Because I think it's sexism for them to tone it down like that. I think the women can be every bit as good as the men with their short games. Right now with the slower greens there's no reason to step it up. Why should I spend a ton of time honing my game for super fast greens when i don't have to play on them? It doesn't make sense. Women can be every bit as good as men on the putting green. It just takes practicing on those kinds of greens.

You're probably right about this, but softer greens probably make up for less of a high flight and less spin for similar distances.

[Golfingdad]

VInsk, When did I ever say a PGA player can be beat by LPGA player?   You are making up facts to prove your point against me.   I have been saying many times in this trhead  that a man scratch golfer can make a cut at LPGA but not beat the top LPGA player.   By claiming that I am delusional to say a PGA tour player can be beat by top LPGA player (which I didn't), you lost what remaining credibility you had.   BTW, on many LPGA tournament, some players hit routinely over 290 yards.   Their official average is much lower like PGA tour official records.   If you understand how PGA & LPGA records drive average, you would know.   To give you a PGA tour example, Tiger in his best days, his official drive average was 300.   Do you believe his average is truly 300?   That average includes on holes that he hits his 3i.   Do some research of your own please.  It's not that hard to do.

That's not quite how they do it. As I understand it, for each tournament they pick two holes that go in opposite directions that will negate any wind issues, and also I presume that they try and pick holes that most guys are likely to hit driver on and they use the drives for those holes only each week to establish the players averages.

[DrvFrShow]

Brittany Lincicome hits a 3W 280.

[SavvySwede]

Brittany Lincicome hits a 3W 280.

Not even close. Her swing speed with the 3 wood is less than 100mph. From her own twitter page https://twitter.com/Brittany1golf/status/289058505481154560/photo/1

[Vinsk]

Again...rkim I presented statistics and you throw in your opinion. " some hit it 290" means absolutely nothing. You're the one with low credibility. I watch LPGA all the time and the average drive is not 270yds. I know you didn't say a PGA pro would lose to LPGA player. That's why I said "if". Read carefully before insulting me. Your credibility is fading. I'm asking for your logic on why you feel if the women are so awesome, and apparently distance is a minimal factor, then why do you feel the scratch guy would keep is card but not win anything? You argue wirh statitisrics because "you've seen some women hit it 290" and I'M losing credibility?

[iacas]

You like others continue to ignore that distance is not the only advantage the men have. Once again read this clearly THE GREENS ARE SLOWER on LPGA courses than on the PGA. Why?

…

If you think a PGA touring pro would get beat by the top girls playing from their tees..you're delusional. So tell us...how good would a guy have to be?

This discussion is not about the PGA Tour.

Sorry, @Vinsk , but @rkim291968 has a point: you're wandering. A scratch golfer is a scratch golfer. I don't care if he hits the ball 340 yards on average, he still shoots about scratch.

Okay, since it's obvious that women are shorter, not physically as strong, let's leave the courses at 6600 yds. I think they could firm up the greens. The top 30 players will adapt and work on their short games. It'll thin the field of the marginal players.

The field of marginal players is already thin.

Why are the greens softer anyway? Who made that decision? Have they tried letting the top women players play on the firm greens? Is it that they think women can't develop the skills to play on those greens? Stacy Lewis was saying the greens at Pinehurst were fun. Perhaps the groundskeepers are being told to overdo it? Why?

They're not. Women are not as good at putting or the short game as the men. The slower, softer greens should make it easier, and yet, even still, they're not as good.

Any time they compete on similar conditions, the women fall farther behind. The men would eat up the conditions the women play on as standard.

Because I think it's sexism for them to tone it down like that. I think the women can be every bit as good as the men with their short games. Right now with the slower greens there's no reason to step it up. Why should I spend a ton of time honing my game for super fast greens when i don't have to play on them? It doesn't make sense. Women can be every bit as good as men on the putting green. It just takes practicing on those kinds of greens.

There is a reason to not step it up: the women would play more poorly. Women are NOT every bit as good. Why? I don't know. Could they be? I don't see why not. Putting is an area where women could be as good. I agree. But they're not, and it's not because they play on slower greens. They fail on faster greens, too.

A large part of it probably has to do with simply how steep the drop-off is in the women's game. There are guys that could win on the PGA Tour playing the web.com Tour because they had a bad Q-School or a few bad breaks last year or something and didn't make the top 25. There are no girls on the Symetra Tour who could win on the LPGA Tour right now. Heck, there are probably 60 gals on the LPGA Tour who can't win on the LPGA Tour right now.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

VInsk,

When did I ever say a PGA player can be beat by LPGA player?   You are making up facts to prove your point against me.   I have been saying many times in this trhead  that a man scratch golfer can make a cut at LPGA but not beat the top LPGA player.   By claiming that I am delusional to say a PGA tour player can be beat by top LPGA player (which I didn't), you lost what remaining credibility you had.

BTW, on many LPGA tournament, some players hit routinely over 290 yards.   Their official average is much lower like PGA tour official records.   If you understand how PGA & LPGA records drive average, you would know.   To give you a PGA tour example, Tiger in his best days, his official drive average was 300.   Do you believe his average is truly 300?   That average includes on holes that he hits his 3i.   Do some research of your own please.  It's not that hard to do.

That's not quite how they do it. As I understand it, for each tournament they pick two holes that go in opposite directions that will negate any wind issues, and also I presume that they try and pick holes that most guys are likely to hit driver on and they use the drives for those holes only each week to establish the players averages.

That's how understand they do it.   They pick two holes going off on opposite direction, etc..

LPGA.com/leaderboard page posts drive average as a round goes on.  I was tracking Yani's avg. on one tournament round and at one point, she was averaging over 290 yards for extended number of holes.

[SavvySwede]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

VInsk,

When did I ever say a PGA player can be beat by LPGA player?   You are making up facts to prove your point against me.   I have been saying many times in this trhead  that a man scratch golfer can make a cut at LPGA but not beat the top LPGA player.   By claiming that I am delusional to say a PGA tour player can be beat by top LPGA player (which I didn't), you lost what remaining credibility you had.

BTW, on many LPGA tournament, some players hit routinely over 290 yards.   Their official average is much lower like PGA tour official records.   If you understand how PGA & LPGA records drive average, you would know.   To give you a PGA tour example, Tiger in his best days, his official drive average was 300.   Do you believe his average is truly 300?   That average includes on holes that he hits his 3i.   Do some research of your own please.  It's not that hard to do.

That's not quite how they do it. As I understand it, for each tournament they pick two holes that go in opposite directions that will negate any wind issues, and also I presume that they try and pick holes that most guys are likely to hit driver on and they use the drives for those holes only each week to establish the players averages.

That's how understand they do it.   They pick two holes going off on opposite direction, etc..

LPGA.com/leaderboard page posts drive average as a round goes on.  I was tracking Yani's avg. on one tournament round and at one point, she was averaging over 290 yards for extended number of holes.

Those kind of stats are misleading. The highest swing speed on the LPGA Tour is 105 at best. You'll only get those big distance numbers with favorable fairway conditions.

[Vinsk]

Sorry, @Vinsk, but @rkim291968 has a point: you're wandering. A scratch golfer is a scratch golfer. I don't care if he hits the ball 340 yards on average, he still shoots about scratch. I understand that. But his defense of the women's talents are not supported by statistics nor facts. Rkim will disagree that the men are better putters and better at the short game. And for that I'm acting unreasonable.

[Vinsk]

[/@]rkim291968 I apologize for the insolent behavior.

[acerimusdux]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

There is a reason to not step it up: the women would play more poorly. Women are NOT every bit as good. Why? I don't know. Could they be? I don't see why not. Putting is an area where women could be as good. I agree. But they're not, and it's not because they play on slower greens. They fail on faster greens, too.

Maybe if they played on even shorter courses, there would be more emphasis on the short game.

We know for example, that the difference between a scratch male and female is about 6 strokes, that's the difference in course rating typically when courses are rated for men vs. women. But if that's the case, and if the LPGA are playing course with 71-72 CR for men, then those are 77-78 ratings for women. So if the PGA was playing courses of equvalent difficulty for men, they'd be playing 77-78 CR courses. But you don't often see that.

According to Brandel Chamblee :

Quote:

PGA Tour setups average about 7,400 yards, while the women play courses around 6,500. Here’s the problem: The biggest hitter on the LPGA last year was Tseng, who averaged 269.2 yards, almost 50 yards behind the men’s top bomber, J.B. Holmes. (Indeed, Tseng’s average distance would have ranked dead last on the PGA Tour.) If you take the 50-yard differential between Tseng and Holmes multiplied by the 36 full shots generally struck during the course of play, you get a better idea of the yardage that’s appropriate for the LPGA -- somewhere in the 6,000-yard range.

And according to this article on the yardages suggested by the Tee it Forward program:

Quote:

As for the LPGA Tour, the current average driving distance is 250 yards. So based on the chart, LPGA course lengths should not exceed 6,400 yards. So far this year, the LPGA has not played a tournament on a course that was shorter than 6,400 yards.

Moreover, the lengths of standard courses may be one reason more women don't play the game. According to one study :

Quote:

According to Little and Leeming, the "average women golfer" hits her tee shot 140 yards. Hence, based on the data they have collected in their research, the length of the course she should play in order to have the opportunity to reach greens in regulation is 4,200 yards. Note that this is 30 times her average drive, which, Little adds, turns out to be a very good rule of thumb for everyone.

He goes on to note that the average male golfer hits a drive of 210 yards, while Kuchar's average drive of 280 yards is within a few of yards of the PGA Tour average in 2010.

"If the woman is at 4,200 yards, the average male golfer should be playing tees at 6,300 and the average PGA pro should be at 8,400 yards," he writes.

So if we really want to change the tees, and nothing else, then maybe we need to adjust the tees enough to actually offset the difference in distance.  Requiring women to play relatively longer courses compared to what the average woman can play really thins out the pool of women who can compete at those distances, and of course leaves a field that is much thinner on short game talent.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

VInsk,

When did I ever say a PGA player can be beat by LPGA player?   You are making up facts to prove your point against me.   I have been saying many times in this trhead  that a man scratch golfer can make a cut at LPGA but not beat the top LPGA player.   By claiming that I am delusional to say a PGA tour player can be beat by top LPGA player (which I didn't), you lost what remaining credibility you had.

BTW, on many LPGA tournament, some players hit routinely over 290 yards.   Their official average is much lower like PGA tour official records.   If you understand how PGA & LPGA records drive average, you would know.   To give you a PGA tour example, Tiger in his best days, his official drive average was 300.   Do you believe his average is truly 300?   That average includes on holes that he hits his 3i.   Do some research of your own please.  It's not that hard to do.

That's not quite how they do it. As I understand it, for each tournament they pick two holes that go in opposite directions that will negate any wind issues, and also I presume that they try and pick holes that most guys are likely to hit driver on and they use the drives for those holes only each week to establish the players averages.

That's how understand they do it.   They pick two holes going off on opposite direction, etc..

LPGA.com/leaderboard page posts drive average as a round goes on.  I was tracking Yani's avg. on one tournament round and at one point, she was averaging over 290 yards for extended number of holes.

Those kind of stats are misleading. The highest swing speed on the LPGA Tour is 105 at best. You'll only get those big distance numbers with favorable fairway conditions.

That's true for many tournament golf courses.   The ball seems to run forever.   But that'd be true for male scratch golfers, too.   Not all of them would average 300 yards on drives on LPGA courses.  In fact, a typical scratch golfer I know drive closer to 250 - 270 on average on my course.   The few who drive more than 270 yards are not scratch golfers.    But scratch golfer is a scratch golfer whether he is averaging 230 or 300 yard drives.  Either one can make the cuts on LPGA tournaments at any given day.   But neither will likely beat the top LPGA players.    I digressed a bit b/c someone here is keep making a claim that a long hitting scratch golfer can beat the top LPGA players.   Long hitting or not, his score average will fall in a narrow range that defines "scratch" golfer.

Here's another data point for this thread.  10 years ago, Anika played in a PGA tour and scored 71-74 on Par 70 7000+ yard course and beat 11 male PGA tour golfers.   Can a typical male scratch golfer do that?   I think not.   You may argue Anika was special as an LPGA golfers go.  But since her time, LPGA playing level have gone up, thanks to Koreans who brought higher level competition to LPGA and made LPGA a global competition.

[Lihu]

Quote:

According to Little and Leeming, the "average women golfer" hits her tee shot 140 yards. Hence, based on the data they have collected in their research, the length of the course she should play in order to have the opportunity to reach greens in regulation is 4,200 yards. Note that this is 30 times her average drive, which, Little adds, turns out to be a very good rule of thumb for everyone.

He goes on to note that the average male golfer hits a drive of 210 yards, while Kuchar's average drive of 280 yards is within a few of yards of the PGA Tour average in 2010.

"If the woman is at 4,200 yards, the average male golfer should be playing tees at 6,300 and the average PGA pro should be at 8,400 yards," he writes.

So if we really want to change the tees, and nothing else, then maybe we need to adjust the tees enough to actually offset the difference in distance.  Requiring women to play relatively longer courses compared to what the average woman can play really thins out the pool of women who can compete at those distances, and of course leaves a field that is much thinner on short game talent.

The average male according to the "Tee it forward" reference you provided would have the average male play from 5600 yards with a 210 yard drive. This makes a lot of sense.

In regard to the 140 yard average for women, I don't think it would be very interesting to watch an LPGA that plays from the same distances 8 to 10 year old kids (of both sexes) play from in the First Tee program. The average drive for an 8 to 10 year old is about 140 yards or more. The ladies I've met drive well over that. I'm guessing that the average women who plays regularly drives 180 or more. I partnered with one lady who drives 240 or more, and hit everything on the green and putts really well parring more than half the holes and didn't doubled any from the standard male tees (6400 yards). I asked why she didn't consider playing professionally and her answer was that she was not big enough to really compete past college. So, I'm guessing her impression is that the LPGA are bigger and stronger than what she considers an average female D1 college player. So, if this is was a player who couldn't even make the bottom half of the LPGA, I thought more about what the actual LPGA players were like, even the last player. Another time, I was hitting balls next to one of the top 12 high school lady golfers in the country (~16 years old). She drove her balls 250 yards with a controlled trajectory just like the scratch golfers I've met. Every shot went within a 30 yard circle. She was about 5'8" and probably over 160 pounds, and just pounded the balls. All the other guys were totally intimidated by her, including me.

So, I think many of us underestimate just how good the professionals are and even how good is an actual scratch golfer.

Let's say we drive an average of 210 yards, this is not comparable in any way to a scratch or a professional drive of 250 yards or 275 yards respectively. The scratch will drive a lot more consistently and hit the ball with a controlled trajectory to 250 yards. The professional will hit his controlled trajectory 275 yards, while someone like Bubba will hit it 300. If any of us could drive with a controlled trajectory it would probably be 10-15% shorter than we currently hit or even shorter. Approaches are similar, except they also have way more accuracy than most of us know. That's how much stronger they are.

So, before we argue about if a scratch golfer can successfully play on the LPGA it takes a little bit more of an understanding of what a scratch and LPGA are actually capable. They're all really good.

[Vinsk]

A couple of excellent posts. As to why the depth of the LPGA remains so shallow however I do not agree it's because of the "strength" needed to compete. Lihu, your friend doesn't seem right in her assessment of why she can't compete past college. Bigger/stronger ? Does she not watch LPGA? There must be some other factor. I hardly consider Lydia Ko, Paula creamer, and a whole list of much smaller than average Thai and Asian players. Hell, a tiny 11yr old girl shot a 74 at Pinehurst. As I stated before, the top 2 biggest hitters aren't leading the field by any means in scoring. Great article. I just don't think making the courses SHORTER would be any good for the LPGA. I'm not buying that distance is the reason for the shallow field. Your friend averages 240yd drives and thinks she can't compete because of strength? Nope. Doesn't add up.

[Lihu]

A couple of excellent posts. As to why the depth of the LPGA remains so shallow however I do not agree it's because of the "strength" needed to compete. Lihu, your friend doesn't seem right in her assessment of why she can't compete past college. Bigger/stronger ? Does she not watch LPGA? There must be some other factor. I hardly consider Lydia Ko, Paula creamer, and a whole list of much smaller than average Thai and Asian players. Hell, a tiny 11yr old girl shot a 74 at Pinehurst.

As I stated before, the top 2 biggest hitters aren't leading the field by any means in scoring. Great article. I just don't think making the courses SHORTER would be any good for the LPGA. I'm not buying that distance is the reason for the shallow field.

Your friend averages 240yd drives and thinks she can't compete because of strength? Nope. Doesn't add up.

IDK either, but that's the reason she gave to me.