Bridgestone Thread

[iacas]

Of course they didn't fine him. When I heard last night that they were going to fine him, my instant thought was "no they aren't".

Uh, the money comes right out of his account with the PGA Tour. You're full of it if you think Tiger doesn't get fined. There are some reports that he's the most heavily fined player on the PGA Tour, what with the number of times he swears and it's caught on film or whatever.

So no, completely bogus. If Finchem or whomever wants to fine Tiger, they do. The fines have not kept up with the inflation of PGA Tour purses, so they're typically awfully small. Most caddies with good players wouldn't be terribly hurt by most PGA Tour fines.

[Cesar]

I said I was done, but I suppose I should have said I was done discussing that which isn't factual in nature. This is a fact in need of correcting: the slow play rule doesn't leave room for discretion. Very, very few good rules EVER leave room for discretion. I've seen the slow play rules, and where possible, they're incredibly clear cut and well defined.

So waiting 10 holes to put them on the clock is how the slow play rule is "clear cut and well defined"? I'm just asking because I haven't seen the complete PGA Tour Slow Play rule.

And if Tiger was somehow given "special treatment" due to the "discretion" of a rules official, imagine the whining. No, I prefer rules that don't allow for "discretion." Humans make mistakes when their opinions (discretions) come into it.

So you think if Harrington and Woods have a dramatic to-the-wire battle with Tiger making that birdie on 18 to win by 1 instead of 4 that there would be a huge outpouring of whining? Really? All I can see is excitement,, a ton of highlights and a great build up to the PGA Championship this week. Any player complaining about that would be laughed at if not ignored, and for good reason. I would hope most of these college educated players would have the sense to know where their bread is buttered.

Excitement is good for the game (and their wallets).

Tiger wants to blame John Paramor. Paddy is keeping quiet about it. But they had 10+ holes to get back on track and they failed to do so. Perhaps Paramor used his "discretion" in not putting them on the clock earlier in the round, hoping they'd make an honest effort to catch up.

Yes, that's my point. If he was going to put them on the clock, do it earlier in the round. From the sound of it, they certainly deserved it. I would have no problem with that. But to do it on the 70th hole is bad. Just bad. It ruined the tournament, and that's never good. That's not the intent of the rule.

And yes, I set my cruise control at 55 MPH in 55 MPH zones.

That's cool, just stay in the right lane please.

And now, barring some really silly factual errors, I believe I am actually done. Bah on me.

That's too bad, I had fun.

[Chas]

Erik,
You argument supposes that the rules officials do not exercise discretion when it comes to pace of play in tournaments. I don't have the data (nor does anyone else that I know of) but I very much doubt that this assumption is correct, i.e. that the time rule is in fact rigorously and equally enforced. In fact we all know that these rules are implemented with a good deal of discretion, in which case ......... what better time to exercise discretion than during an epic struggle on a Sunday afternoon? My argument in no way requires Tiger to be involved. It's irrelevant, what matters is that the scene should be essentially comparable.

I understand your point of view that objective rules should be enforced equally, but circumstances DO in fact matter. The energy of the entire tournament was focused on the duel that was going on between those two players, as Tiger pointed out most eloquently. Each shot was critical to the outcome, much more so than the shots being played by those who went before. Much easier for the losers to play faster on the back nine, I'm confident that they had counted themselves out of the running well before the whistle was blown. It was therefore reasonable for our two protagonists to be allowed the time to compose themselves properly before each shot, after the excited crowd had settled down each time. I watched it all and never saw Padraig dawdling unnecessarily, given the circumstances . I saw Tiger step back from one shot two or three times mulling over club selection and talking it over with Steve - just fine by me. There was a heck of a lot on the line.

One of the commentators on the Golf Channel kept saying that, if Woods and Harrington had been allowed extra time, the other players would have complained about unfair treatment afterwards. That is a patently absurd argument in my view. I simply can't imagine that happening. Why? Because IMO other players will think to themselves, "if I'm in Harrington or Tiger's position on a Sunday with the tournament to play for and in a do-or-die struggle, I'm going to want to have the necessary time to play every shot at my best. Let's just hope I get that chance one day". They aren't going to begrudge the two leading players the time they need, as long as neither of them takes advantage somehow. To his great credit Tiger fully understands this. Tiger saw the clock as an undue outside interference with that most critical stage of play, which is just what it was.

The whole things suggests to me that Paramor was trying to hold this up as an ultra-high-profile example of the slow play problem that we all know golf suffers from (including tournaments). Yes it's a big problem, but let's not make a mockery of the last day of a particularly exciting PGA event to demonstrate that fact. And if he felt that he needed to blow the whistle on the leaders, he should have done so MUCH MUCH SOONER as Cesar points out - not with three holes to play in a phenomenally tight and exciting contest. What a blasted waste the whole thing turned out to be. I think Tiger was almost as disappointed as Padraig. A major blunder by Paramor IMHO.

[Shindig]

As long as you can prove to me they follow a clearly defined rule to a tee every single time for everybody, then I might consider conceeding this point. I just have a hard time believing that they do.

You're asking for a proof by exhaustion - knowing the speed at which every player played every hole since at least the inception of slow play rules, or maybe just 1981 when the TOUR was separated from the PGA of America.

If you want another example of the final group having an epic duel, being placed on the clock, and a player dumping balls in the water while on the clock near the end, check out the 2007 Players Championship. It wasn't Tiger and Paddy, but it was Phil Mickelson (another kid from Southern California) and Sean O'Hair (who, like Padraig, has Irish ancestry). So it's at least a very similar circumstance: a tournament with status just under the four majors, duel near the end, balls in the water affecting the outcome. Until the 71st, though, it looked like it would affect Phil more, who was less used to rushing his shots (perhaps Sean has been on the clock more than they publicize). Now, if you want a proof, and have the information required (as explained in my first paragraph), let me have it and I can mine it for you and let you know if they're followed in every circumstance, using your (in my opinion, unreasonable) standard of proof.

[Cesar]

You're asking for a proof by exhaustion - knowing the speed at which every player played every hole since at least the inception of slow play rules, or maybe just 1981 when the TOUR was separated from the PGA of America.

It's not proof by exhaustion. I gave a good example in the very post you replied to.

Please show me where it says the group gets warned and has 10 holes to catch up before they are put on the clock. Because according to what iacas has said, and I have no reason to believe he made it up, is that Tiger and Paddy were warned on the 6th hole for falling behind and had actually lost time by the time the 16th hole had arrived. Why weren't they put on the clocker much much sooner? Why wait to the 70th hole of the tournament if they were behind all day? You use the discretion to cut them slack all day and then drop the hammer during the final 3 hole stretch? How does that make sense? If the rule is clear cut and well defined, then I'd like to see where the rule states they get 10 holes to catch up before getting put on the clock. That's it. BTW, in the example you used at the Players, what were the details surrounding it? Were they also given 10 holes to catch up?

[shaun]

To his credit, Harrington hasn't sought to blame the official's ruling for his triple on 16, but he couldn't legitimately seek to do so in any event. He's a pro golfer; he hit his ball into the water; he racked up the 8. Woods was on the clock too, and he stiffed his approach shot to a foot.

I don't think this should be a controversial issue. If you wanted to find fault with anyone here, though, it must be with Woods. A ruling was made; it was probably correct, but that's really not relevant. In golf (and in all sports really), you're obliged to accept the ruling. You don't later seek to undermine its credibility or the credibility of the responsible official; and if you do, at the PGA Tour level, you'll be fined. The PGA Tour can hardly permit its competitors to publicly raise doubts about the results of golf tournaments by questioning the decisions of officials. It's a bad look for all concerned: for the player himself, for the Tour, and for the game in general.

[I KyotE I]

But still now the PGA is stating something about a reporter leaking the rumor of a fine and that they didn't take the comments as an attack on the rulings or the people involved. Give it a few more days. I don't think this will go away until thursday at tee time.

[pxc]

How did they get behind in the first place? Does this "on the clock" rule only apply to the final 3 holes, or the final minutes of a network broadcast, or what?

[TN94z]

That is incorrect. When a group is “out of position” a player in the group is expected to play any stroke within 40 seconds.

So are you saying that the player gets 40 seconds to play the shot only when they are on the clock? Otherwise, they can take "hypothetically" as much time as they want?

Of course they didn't fine him. When I heard last night that they were going to fine him, my instant thought was "no they aren't".

They didn't fine him because they reviewed his comments and didn't see anything wrong with what he said.

To his credit, Harrington hasn't sought to blame the official's ruling for his triple on 16, but he couldn't legitimately seek to do so in any event. He's a pro golfer; he hit his ball into the water; he racked up the 8. Woods was on the clock too, and he stiffed his approach shot to a foot.

With losing the tournement, Harrington would have really sounded like a crybaby if he would have said anything...that is why I like the fact that Tiger spoke up. I don't see how you can really find fault with anyone.

-If they were behind in their game, they should be warned just like the rule states. -The rules official was just doing his job, so he can't be faulted. -Tiger was just voicing his opinion, so he shouldn't have been faulted. I really agree with everything that happened.

[BASHERBAKER69]

Tiger won't worry about being fined. The fine comes out of his PGA tour account, but he won't be worrying- his earnings are just beer money compared to what he earns off the course. Having said that if he wins the FedEx Cup this year his playing earnings for this year could top 20 million dollars if you include the bonus.

[RemyM]

So are you saying that the player gets 40 seconds to play the shot only when they are on the clock? Otherwise, they can take "hypothetically" as much time as they want?

Correct. Of course if they played faster to begin with then they would never need to be on the clock.

[TN94z]

Correct. Of course if they played faster to begin with then they would never need to be on the clock.

Okay, I was just curious.

I think Tiger's big argument was that if Padraig had not hit that shot into the water, then they would have been right behind the group in front of them. I heard him say yesterday, that they were only like 5 minutes behind that group. Anyway, it is what it is.

[albatross]

Uh, the money comes right out of his account with the PGA Tour. You're full of it if you think Tiger doesn't get fined. There are some reports that he's the most heavily fined player on the PGA Tour, what with the number of times he swears and it's caught on film or whatever.

With all due respect, you have no idea if he's actually fined or not. What

"reports" are you speaking of specifically? The Tour hasn't ever disclosed a fine on a player, so I'd be interested in seeing credible proof of this. If you don't think that Tiger gets treated differently than other players, you're being naive. Tiger has more influence on the overall cash flow of the PGA Tour than any other player in the history of sports. These "reports" that you're talking about are the same reports that said on monday that he was fined and the next day were proven false by Tiger himself.

[Titanfann]

I'm glad Tiger said what he said but in my "humble" opinion Paddy is NOT a slow player. Don't really think it was his fault for the slow play. I may be wrong. I watched the telecast late that night and I was sleepy. Did something happen to slow down their play or was it the usual looking at the tree tops and tossing up grass?....just asking?

[RemyM]

I think Tiger's big argument was that if Padraig had not hit that shot into the water, then they would have been right behind the group in front of them. I heard him say yesterday, that they were only like 5 minutes behind that group. Anyway, it is what it is.

Possibly, but that would have been because they played 16 fast until he hit it into the water because they were on the clock. When they were still on 15 green the group ahead of them had left 16 green so they were out of position at that time.

[lobsterzilla]

With all due respect, you have no idea if he's actually fined or not. What "reports" are you speaking of specifically? The Tour hasn't ever disclosed a fine on a player, so I'd be interested in seeing credible proof of this.

that's because the PGA's policy is specifically to -not- disclose fines. They like to keep everything inhouse, tiger has frequently stated how often he gets fined (and if you're thinking he's just saying that for tv .... i mean i've got a few other conspiracy theories i can probably sell you a well) forinstance when discussing the fine before it was known that it was erroneous, the announcers made a point to point out that every time Stevie Williams wears shorts Tiger is fined and stuff like that. give me a break. tiger isn't judge dread or some silliness like you seem to think ps. I like to think of tiger speaking up as akin to a pitcher protecting his hitters in baseball... It was exactly Tigers spot to take his friend/competitors side and speak on his behalf. If you're a batter and you get plunked, you dont charge the mound; you wait until the next inning when your pitcher puts a fastball in someones side

[iacas]

You argument supposes that the rules officials do not exercise discretion when it comes to pace of play in tournaments. I don't have the data (nor does anyone else that I know of) but I very much doubt that this assumption is correct, i.e. that the time rule is in fact rigorously and equally enforced.

It is. You have to remember, though, that TWO things have to be out of whack for a group to be warned. First they have to be behind the time par, then they also have to have an entire hole open ahead of them.

That doesn't happen very frequently. And yet Sunday at Bridgestone no less than three or four groups were on the clock at various times. And yeah, so far as I have been able to tell, it's a far more correct assumption than it is not. Stewart Cink said it best: the rules officials told him they had to be able to look everyone in the eye and say they've applied the rules fairly and equitably, that everyone played under the SAME rules. They do their best job of that. Tiger was famously slow playing with Chris DiMarco at The Masters in 2005, but PGA Tour officials don't run that event (or any other major), so if you've seen Tiger playing slowly there, that's a different ball of wax.

In fact we all know that these rules are implemented with a good deal of discretion

That's disingenuous. I just said the opposite because I'm just telling you what the players and officials tell me.

I understand your point of view that objective rules should be enforced equally, but circumstances DO in fact matter.

In the eyes of a rules official, on slow play, no, they don't. It goes back to what Stewart Cink said - they've gotta be able to look everyone in the eye and say "we've enforced the same rules for everyone" and "everyone played under the same conditions."

I get what you're saying, but you're completely on the wrong end of it. It matters MORE that rules are upheld consistently than it matters that we potentially fluster a player. Had Paddy made par, this wouldn't have come up. Only because Paddy brain farted is this even a discussion.

The energy of the entire tournament was focused on the duel that was going on between those two players, as Tiger pointed out most eloquently. Each shot was critical to the outcome, much more so than the shots being played by those who went before.

And again, where do you draw that line? What if someone goes eagle-eagle while playing a few groups ahead, and on pace? Should the leaders not be penalized for slow play at that point since the other guy played in the allotted time? How big of a lead - how far separated - must two golfers be before we consider the "energy of the entire tournament"? Three shots? Two if there's an easy par five they're gonna birdie coming up?

You can't make rules like that, and you can't enforce rules like that. I know it goes right back to discretion, but there is no room for discretion in the rules for slow play. As, I don't think, there should be.

I watched it all and never saw Padraig dawdling unnecessarily,

Because they were in commercial. I was there - Paddy's sped up over the past few years, but he's still s-l-o-w.

That is a patently absurd argument in my view.

They would have. You might not have heard it or seen it published, but they would have. Several players were wondering if they were on the clock before it became known that they were because they saw how far out of position they were.

They aren't going to begrudge the two leading players the time they need, as long as neither of them takes advantage somehow.

You're guessing, and based on what I know, that's not true at all. Players hate it when the competition isn't kept as pure (and equitable) as possible.

Tiger saw the clock as an undue outside interference with that most critical stage of play, which is just what it was.

And Tiger's a graceful winner who was giving Paddy an out, of sorts. Paddy said "my fault" and moved on.

The whole things suggests to me that Paramor was trying to hold this up as an ultra-high-profile example of the slow play problem that we all know golf suffers from (including tournaments).

Paramor was trying to enforce the rules equitably. To attribute some sort of malice or bizarre purpose to his actions says that you're injecting your own opinion where it doesn't belong - and about something you seem to know little. I don't know Paramor very well, but in the few times I've talked to him he's a rules hard-ass (and I mean that in a positive way) and everyone speaks VERY highly of him. (Which is what made what he said about "intent" with Kenny Perry strike me so oddly.)

Yes it's a big problem, but let's not make a mockery of the last day of a particularly exciting PGA event to demonstrate that fact.

He wasn't "making a mockery" of it.

And if he felt that he needed to blow the whistle on the leaders, he should have done so MUCH MUCH SOONER as Cesar points out - not with three holes to play in a phenomenally tight and exciting contest.

What Cesar fails to point out is that they were still awfully close to within one hole before they got to 16. At 16, they were not only behind the time par, but the entire hole was open. That was the first opportunity he really had to enforce the rule as it's written. It was close to that point - the group prior on 14 was just walking off as Paddy was putting his tee in the ground - but it wasn't an entire hole. They played 14 and 15 really slowly.

Now you've both managed to make me a liar, but I'm really done at this point.

[RemyM]

Tiger was famously slow playing with Chris DiMarco at The Masters in 2005, but PGA Tour officials don't run that event (or any other major), so if you've seen Tiger playing slowly there, that's a different ball of wax.

Correct, it's up to the committee in charge of the competition to determine what, if any, pace of play guidelines are in effect. So the guidelines for this week's PGA Championship might not be the same as the one's used last week for the WGC event, (which by the way is run by the The International Federation of PGA Tours, not the PGA Tour) weekly PGA Tour events and other Majors.

The USGA has a strict pace of play policy for its amateur events, but not for the Opens.