The Biggest Secret? Slide Your Hips

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Bananarama

You know this is not true, if he comes from an inside -> outside path with an open face (to the path) he will push it and fade it.

Of course that's true, but he said his natural shot was "a fade or a push-fade." Virtually nobody who describes their natural shot that way is coming from the inside.

And it's unlikely that he's playing a "from inside-out" push-fade. It's more likely he has the BFL wrong and thinks he's swinging inside-out when he's not.

[Bananarama]

lol, snap!

[mdl]

Originally Posted by iacas

Of course that's true, but he said his natural shot was "a fade or a push-fade." Virtually nobody who describes their natural shot that way is coming from the inside.

And it's unlikely that he's playing a "from inside-out" push-fade. It's more likely he has the BFL wrong and thinks he's swinging inside-out when he's not.

No I've been a regular here long enough that I know exactly what the ball flight laws are.  You're over-interpreting a sloppy sentence from me.  My natural shape, especially with the longer clubs, is a push fade with a very clearly slightly in-to-out divot but with the heel of the left hand really dragging forward through impact leaving the face open even to that in-to-out path and resulting in a push-fade.

When I try to fix it, I've still always had a hard time getting the face closed or even to square relative to the path consistently, so trying to fix it sometimes results in an out-to-in path with face square to the target line giving me just a straight fade.  That's why I say my natural shot is fade or push-fade, but really my base natural shot is the slightly in-to-out, open face push-fade.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mdl

No I've been a regular here long enough that I know exactly what the ball flight laws are.  You're over-interpreting a sloppy sentence from me.  My natural shape, especially with the longer clubs, is a push fade with a very clearly slightly in-to-out divot but with the heel of the left hand really dragging forward through impact leaving the face open even to that in-to-out path and resulting in a push-fade.

When I try to fix it, I've still always had a hard time getting the face closed or even to square relative to the path consistently, so trying to fix it sometimes results in an out-to-in path with face square to the target line giving me just a straight fade.  That's why I say my natural shot is fade or push-fade, but really my base natural shot is the slightly in-to-out, open face push-fade.

Okay. Just checking. Having those wrong, as you know, can lead to a lot of time spent working on the wrong things.

P.S. You probably also know this, so I'll say it for the benefit of others: divots don't tell the truth, though if anything they tend to point more left than the actual path, so if they point right, it's unlikely the path is actually left.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by iacas

Okay. Just checking. Having those wrong, as you know, can lead to a lot of time spent working on the wrong things.

P.S. You probably also know this, so I'll say it for the benefit of others: divots don't tell the truth, though if anything they tend to point more left than the actual path, so if they point right, it's unlikely the path is actually left.

That one (about the divots) I didn't know.  Thanks for the tell.  Makes sense given the geometry of the club though that the divot could tend to point a little left of your club path.

Back to the original point, I'm really pumped about the butt slide instead of the hip point slide.  It's far from great yet, and with the butt slide along with deep hands I'm hitting way too many straight huge pushes and big hooks still, but I've also started hitting semi-regular push draws that end up on target for the first time in my golfing career, and it definitely feels like another small step in the right direction.  Hopefully it'll be more than, say, 12 days before everything goes to s**t and I need to start fixing the next thing in order not to start inflating the HC :)

[GaryH]

Apologies if it's already been mentioned in this thread, but the guys at GolfTEC say that from a sample of over 150 tour players they average 42 degrees open with their hips at impact with a 5 iron.  Amateurs (from a sample of 180,000) average 23 degrees open.

Their other findings:

Takeaway:

The pros achieve an average of 55 degree shoulder turn by the time the club reaches parallel to the ground in the takeaway.  Amateurs average only 30 degrees.  Pros therefore complete much of their shoulder turn early in the backswing.

Top of backswing:

Interestingly, they are very similar.  Both turn their shoulders more than 80 degrees and both tilt their shoulders downward about 35 degrees.  More on this later.

Move Down:

This is where they say pros get it so right and amateurs so wrong - pros drop the right shoulder (setting them in place to come from the inside) but amateurs rotate the shoulders (promoting the over the top move).

So, halfway down:  Pros shoulders are tilted nearly 20 degrees more to his right than a slicer's, their shoulder tilts being 5 degrees left and 24 degrees left respectively.  Also, a pro's hips are 10 degrees open and an amateur's are 10 degrees closed.

Impact:

Sholder tilt:  Pro (43 degrees), amateur (only 30 degrees)

Hips: Pro (42 degrees open), amateur (only 23 degrees open).

THE FINAL ANALYSIS:

So, how come despite looking similar at top of backswing, pros get the all-important transition move right and amateurs get it wrong?  They say it's all about how you get to the top of the backswing.  Refer to the takeaway stats.  Because amateurs don't turn in the takeaway, they need to make two-thirds of their shoulder turn in the 2nd half of the backswing.  And, they say, if you turn late you're likely to turn early in the downswing.....and that works against the proper shoulder tilt you need to avoid a slice.

It was all about how the backswing was sequenced .

So, how to turn early in the backswing (and therefore set up the correct sequence to give yourself the best chance of sucess from there)?  Make the buttons on your golf shirt point past your right toe by the time the club is parallel to the ground.

[GaryH]

Here's the article.  Would've been quicker to have just posted this:

http://www.golftec.com/info/marketing/press/in_the_news/Golf_Digest_-_Sept_2009.pdf

[iacas]

Here are some other stats, and they're current and not based on information that's who knows how old:

The average PGA Tour pro has 85-95% of his pressure forward at impact.

The average amateur never gets above 70%, and many that get close to 70% are going backwards at impact (they'll get to 70% too early in the backswing, then straighten the lead knee and push their weight and pressure backwards). Most are around 55% at impact.

[GaryH]

haha, who's that dude in my avatar?

I've just been out to my garden and have been swinging thinking to 'swing real easy and slide hips' (the latter to start the downswing), and i have to say it feels good.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by GaryH

It was all about how the backswing was sequenced.

So, how to turn early in the backswing (and therefore set up the correct sequence to give yourself the best chance of sucess from there)?  Make the buttons on your golf shirt point past your right toe by the time the club is parallel to the ground.

And to keep turning with a steady head, do this,

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55080/myth-of-maintaining-address-flexion-in-the-rear-knee

Not a topic for this thread but I couldn't help myself

[Limpinswinger]

Originally Posted by mdl

No I've been a regular here long enough that I know exactly what the ball flight laws are.  You're over-interpreting a sloppy sentence from me.  My natural shape, especially with the longer clubs, is a push fade with a very clearly slightly in-to-out divot but with the heel of the left hand really dragging forward through impact leaving the face open even to that in-to-out path and resulting in a push-fade.

When I try to fix it, I've still always had a hard time getting the face closed or even to square relative to the path consistently, so trying to fix it sometimes results in an out-to-in path with face square to the target line giving me just a straight fade.  That's why I say my natural shot is fade or push-fade, but really my base natural shot is the slightly in-to-out, open face push-fade.

So, the only thing I can think of to explain it is that your swing path is inside out in relation to the target line, but, outside-in in relation to your club face.

[Limpinswinger]

Originally Posted by iacas

Okay. Just checking. Having those wrong, as you know, can lead to a lot of time spent working on the wrong things.

P.S. You probably also know this, so I'll say it for the benefit of others: divots don't tell the truth, though if anything they tend to point more left than the actual path, so if they point right, it's unlikely the path is actually left.

Can't an inside-out swing at contact start to move to an outside-in swing after contact during the divot?

[buddy6713]

Very hard, very hard to get.  I'm not a low hcp'r, I'm a 5.6 and today I pulled or pull hooked every single shot, every single shot.  Possibly the most frustrating round in years, but the silver lining is that I know absolutely that I am not sliding my hips properly.  They're turning out and too fast allowing my hands to whip through unimpeded by the body leading the way.  So my hands close the face before the club gets to impact.

How to get this slide incorporated into my swing?  Nothing in this article helps me to do that.  Anyone out there have a better idea?

[Mike Handy]

very useful content. this is useful for me as a beginner

[garybbq]

Wow thanks for this thread, it is definitely something I need to work on. I have read the entire thread and have been working on sliding my hips for about 2 weeks at the range, I feel I have been making some good progress but was wondering if some of the more knowledgeable folks could comment on my swing?

IMHO it seems to me that I am sliding my hips properly but then I seem to quit rotating or just quit on my swing all together, am I actually sliding correctly? If so any swing thoughts to keep rotating through?

Thanks,

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Not a topic for this thread but I couldn't help myself

Backswing knee action seems relevant to the hip slide, so I say you're fine.

[Moonnerd]

Great thread.  I have read it several times, and have been trying to incorporate a hip slide into the beginning of my downswing.  It has helped a lot!

Occasionally though, while my hips slide forward, my shoulders dip down too much and I chunk it or sky a drive.  What have y'all found (either swing thoughts, drills, mechanics) that help prevent that?  Thanks in advance.

[iacas]

Great thread.  I have read it several times, and have been trying to incorporate a hip slide into the beginning of my downswing.  It has helped a lot!  Occasionally though, while my hips slide forward, my shoulders dip down too much and I chunk it or sky a drive.  What have y'all found (either swing thoughts, drills, mechanics) that help prevent that?  Thanks in advance.

Your hips probably aren't going forward as far as you think - your head is probably dipping backwards in those cases.