Your Putting Style: Utley or Pelz?

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

turn an inherently circular motion into a linear straight motion

Its only "inherently circular" because most people have a very small, nautural pivot to the stroke.  If the body stays perfectly still, there is no reason it has to be a circular motion.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Its only "inherently circular" because most people have a very small, nautural pivot to the stroke.  If the body stays perfectly still, there is no reason it has to be a circular motion.

It's an arc.

You stand to the side of the ball and move your shoulders -- if you have a simple, natural motion of the big muscles, the club eventually travels in an arc.

[johnclayton1982]

Sorry to post again, but this an interesting topic for me.

An interesting part of Pelz's book is his discussion of whether or not the PGA Tour pros are, in fact, the best putters in the world.  He concludes they are very good, but not the best, and points to the relative failure (realtive!) of PGA Pros at the World Putting Championship.  He also suggests pros get a putting advantage due to their impeccable greens.  I'm not sure he is right about this, but I'm equally unsure that, unlike the long game, a given PGA Pro is the authority on putting.  They are very, very good, certainly - but maybe not the best.  Food for thought.

[johnclayton1982]

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You stand to the side of the ball and move your shoulders -- if you have a simple, natural motion of the big muscles, the club eventually travels in an arc.

Well, yes, but thats kindof my point.  Pelz teaches that the natural way is incorrect for best putting results.  He even flat out says "I don't teach you the most natural way to putt, or even the best way to putt for you" or something very similar.  His argument is that drilling out the "natural way" produces a better, more repeatable stroke.  There is no doubt SBST is not natural, but I think Pelz makes a compelling argument that it is better.  As I went on at length in my post, Pelz is not a "tip" or something you can read and get better at - his SBST only works if you do his system of drills and redefine your sense of "natural" to something better.

Edit: "Better" might provoke some argument.  Something "else".  But Pelz says, flat-out, that SBST is not the most natural way to putt or the easiest.  He just says its the best given that you drill it.  You can read Stockton or Utley's books (and I have) and go out to the green and 'try out' their methods.  You can't 'try out' Pelz's SBST method.  You have to commit to it for, according to Pelz, at least 6 months.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I've been doing it since about July, every day, and it has made a HUGE improvement in my putting.

If I practiced anything every day for months I'd get better at it. There's no way for you to prove (or for me to disprove) that if you had putted the way Utley would prefer you to putt and practiced every day since July you'd not be even better than you are now.

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

These are on youtube, but we would never say the Sorenstam hits with a reverse pivot, or that Arnold Palmer hits his driver off the deck fat.

I agree, but look at countless videos of Stricker putting. They all reveal the same thing. So too does his SAM PuttLab data. SAM gives you "a ton of data."

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I guess my issue is that you are right, nobody putts SBST - I don't, but I come close.  You are correct that a player shouldn't try to putt SBST unless they are willing to do drills to make sure they , in fact, putting SBST and to quiet their lower body to take wrists out.

...

I don't think its fair to say "nobody putts SBST" - thats like saying "nobody" has a square clubface at impact (even on trackman, my pro the other day his a very straight shot with his clubface .2 degrees open - that isn't squre).  I think the poll should be :

I didn't say "nobody putts SBST." Be fair. I said "virtually nobody." Heck, you said it more than I did (bolded section).

It's completely possible to putt SBST, in one of two ways:

1. Shrug your shoulders. No rotating them around your spine, just a sort of "shrugging" motion.

2. Make the spine between your shoulders horizontal to the ground. Then rotate your shoulders around your spine. They'll rotate vertically.

At the end of the day, you said even you don't putt SBST, and you can't prove that you wouldn't have gotten better adopting more of a gentle arc stroke and practicing it every day for six months.

[zipazoid]

The only way 'straight back straight through' would work is if you could straddle the line & hit it croquet-style - equal sides of the body are on each side of the line, eyes, hands and ball on the same plane. In that instance, it would be natural and correct to take the club straight back & through on the same plane.

Obviously, you cannot putt that way. Instead, the entire body is on one side of the ball, hands are to one side. With that dynamic, the club must go to the inside on the backswing.

The best tip I ever received for putting is a real simple one. Take it back a little inside. Because, from the vantage point of the player, 'straight back' is actually 'outside'. There's no way to accurately view 'straight back' - you're on one side of the ball. And, as has been already stated, the putting stroke is a mini-swing. You don't take the club 'straight back' in a full swing - it goes inside. So should the putting stroke.

[johnclayton1982]

Iacas,

What do you consider to be SBST?  No movement, at all, to the inside?  1*?  .1*?

Nobody can putt SBST repeatedly if SBST is defined as 0 degrees deviation.  Within some tight bands, though, you can.

Quote:

At the end of the day, you said even you don't putt SBST, and you can't prove that you wouldn't have gotten better adopting more of a gentle arc stroke and practicing it every day for six months.

Thats true, but just because something else might have worked, doesn't mean SBST and Pelz's drills arn't valid because, in fact, they *did* work.

Best,

John

Edited to be less confusing.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

Obviously, you cannot putt that way. Instead, the entire body is on one side of the ball, hands are to one side. With that dynamic, the club must go to the inside on the backswing.

Are you saying that it is physically impossible to have a putter backswing with 0* rotation?  Its not, as the ping putter app can demonstrate.  it might not feel right or natural to you, but that is not synonamous with impossible.

Quote:

There's no way to accurately view 'straight back'

of course there is.  Put rails on your putter and put it in a track.  It'll tell you every time.  Just like you need to look at ballflight to tell your clubhead path - I've seen that on countless threads before.  Hit a shot without being able to see the ball and then reliably tell me if your path was open, closed or dead square at impact.  You can't.  Same with putting.  That doesn't mean one is better than another, and you certainly don't swing the golf club slowly trying to get a perfect path.  You need to make it second nautre - hence, Pelz's drills.  Nobody can "accurately view" their clubhead path on any shot, let alone a putt.

Quote:

The best tip I ever received for putting is a real simple one. Take it back a little inside. Because, from the vantage point of the player, 'straight back' is actually 'outside'. There's no way to accurately view 'straight back' - you're on one side of the ball. And, as has been already stated, the putting stroke is a mini-swing. You don't take the club 'straight back' in a full swing - it goes inside. So should the putting stroke.

You assume the putting stroke should be like the full stroke.  That is an assumption your argument rests on, but that is far from proven.  In fact, Pelz makes a very compelling argument in his book that the putter swing and the full swing should not have anything in common.

(I edited after confusing face with path).

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Are you saying that it is physically impossible to have a putter backswing with 0* rotation?  Its not, as the ping putter app can demonstrate.

of course there is.  Put rails on your putter and put in a track.  Just like you need to look at ballflight to tell your face position - I've seen that on countless threads before.  Hit a shot without being able to see the ball and then reliably tell me if your face was open, closed or dead square at impact.  You can't.  Same with putting.  That doesn't mean one face position is better than another, and you certainly don't swing the golf club slowly trying to position the club.  You need to make it second nautre - hence, Pelz's drills.

You assume the putting stroke should be like the full stroke.  That is an assumption your argument rests on, but that is far from proven.  In fact, Pelz makes a very compelling argument in his book that the putter swing and the full swing should not have anything in common.

Not saying it's impossible, but it is unnatural given where the body is in relation to the clubhead.

Go ahead and use rails if it works for you. My point in case you missed it, is from the vantage point of being on one side of the ball is, 'straight back' is actually 'outside'. And you mention 'second nature' - to me that's take it back inside. In the end, that's what is important - what feel natural & what brings the face in contact with the ball square.

And yes, I am assuming the putting stroke should be like the full swing. Why would you want it to be different?

Again, I'm saying what works for me. And it has worked well. Whenever my stroke gets off-kilter, 95% of the time is cuz I'm taking it outside (which again, looks square from the player's vantage point) and cutting across the ball. The quickest & easiest fix has been, time and again, to take it back a little inside. It works for me. If it doesn't for you, great.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Well, yes, but thats kindof my point.  Pelz teaches that the natural way is incorrect for best putting results.  He even flat out says "I don't teach you the most natural way to putt, or even the best way to putt for you" or something very similar.  His argument is that drilling out the "natural way" produces a better, more repeatable stroke.  There is no doubt SBST is not natural, but I think Pelz makes a compelling argument that it is better.  As I went on at length in my post, Pelz is not a "tip" or something you can read and get better at - his SBST only works if you do his system of drills and redefine your sense of "natural" to something better.

Edit: "Better" might provoke some argument.  Something "else".  But Pelz says, flat-out, that SBST is not the most natural way to putt or the easiest.  He just says its the best given that you drill it.  You can read Stockton or Utley's books (and I have) and go out to the green and 'try out' their methods.  You can't 'try out' Pelz's SBST method.  You have to commit to it for, according to Pelz, at least 6 months.

I would say that SBST as practiced by most would lead to inconsistency. Some guys with 30 inch putters can SBST on longer putts without manipulation. But to tell you the truth, most guys I see who think they SBST have a longer putter and a slight arc. If they don't have an arc, they are manipulating. And if you manipulate, you've got to time your hands to square back up at impact. Of course, if you can SBST without manipulation, then it's great -- BUT I'd have a bad back eventually and wouldn't be able to play.

Don't think that is a consistent or reasonable way for most people.

For an arc type putter, If you set up in a neutral setup with the ball lined up so you hit it square and the club head remains square to the arc -- there is no manipulation. Of course, if the ball is not placed in a neutral position, you've got issues.

To me, both methods have issues in practice-- but the arc method I use (Pat O'Brien's method) does not rely on manipulation or release, only the movement of the shoulders -- and has less issues for me.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

I would say that SBST as practiced by most would lead to inconsistency. Some guys with 30 inch putters can SBST on longer putts without manipulation. But to tell you the truth, most guys I see who think they SBST have a longer putter and a slight arc. If they don't have an arc, they are manipulating. And if you manipulate, you've got to time your hands to square back up at impact. Of course, if you can SBST without manipulation, then it's great -- BUT I'd have a bad back eventually and wouldn't be able to play.

Don't think that is a consistent or reasonable way for most people.

Thats the thing, though.  You can putt SBST with a pretty long backswing without back injury and all that - you just have to learn how to do it.  Its not natural, but it works.  And it doesn't require that any part of the clubhead move faster than any other part (more in a minute); it is inherently "better" than an arc'd swing because it doesn't require a release, and every arc swing, by definition, has a release.

Quote:

To me, both methods have issues in practice-- but the arc method I use (Pat O'Brien's method) does not rely on manipulation or release, only the movement of the shoulders -- and has less issues for me.

Unless you're aiming way left with an open stance and hitting the ball with an open face to your shoulder and hip line (but square to the target line), you have a release.  If you swing the putter on an arc, at some point the toe must move faster than the heel to get the putter to square at impact.  The toe moving faster than the heel is a release.  Now, you might have a very slow release, or you might have a release without your wrists/hands, but you have to have a release if you putt on an arc.  And when the toe has to move faster than the heel, you introduce a variable that isn't present in SBST, and can produce slight sidespin and a much higher chance of an open/closed putter face relative to the target line.  It trades an extra step to be more comfortable.  Pelz's argument (and he explains it better than me in the first 2-3 chapters of his book) is that if you do the drills, you can be just as comfortable SBST as arc'd, but you don't have the extra error variable of a release of the putterhead.

I'm not a Pelz zealot or anything, but I do believe in his method, and I wanted to post because those arguing for Pelz earlier in the thread seemed more interested in picking a fight with iacas than arguing the merits of the strokes.  I think those interested in improving their putting should read the first few chapters of his book and see if it makes sense to them.

[saevel25]

My putting has evolved over the years, and i tried alot of different things. I even thought about going left handed making it right hand low. It never felt comfortable to do left hand low, but just going left handed would be an interesting idea. But what i found works for me is an arc swing. It makes more sense to me, i think its more natural. I believe Pelz advocates pulling the left hand through the impact, which he says is because its easier to pull something than it is to push it. That logic is sound if your talking about a moveable hinge. I prefer Utley, which i believe advocates you push with your right hand. I like feeling the hinge in my right hand staying constant. Its easier for me to focus on that.

[inthehole]

This whole thing is splitting hairs ... the people who prefer SBST may not be doing it 100% due to imperceptable human physical anatomy limitations, but they're certainly making an attempt to go straight back & are much CLOSER to swinging SBST than those that use an arc stroke.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

I believe Pelz advocates pulling the left hand through the impact, which he says is because its easier to pull something than it is to push it.

Thats his philosophy for hitting a wedge.  Pelz does not advocate pulling the left hand through impact with the putter.

[sshadow2]

Originally Posted by inthehole

This whole thing is splitting hairs ... the people who prefer SBST may not be doing it 100% due to imperceptable human physical anatomy limitations, but they're certainly making an attempt to go straight back & are much CLOSER to swinging SBST than those that use an arc stroke.

You got that right.

Just because a person actually does an arc doesn't mean it's Utley's method. His arc is really pronounced, thus what I mentioned previously about perfect squaring of the face. Rather than think of a SBST stroke, I think of trying to peripherally stay on the target line as long as possible (keeping the face perpendicular to it) going back and going through. It's a very slight arc, but its closer to straight than arc. Much closer to the SBST mindset IMO.

[WUTiger]

Quote:

... I've always felt the "straight back, straight through" approach required manipulation of the wrists to keep the putter face square to the target line. I don't like that. ...

I won a new Ping putter at a golf shop Christmas event, and had the above discussion with the pro during the fitting.

I had always used the pendelum approach to putting, which is ideally straight back and straight forward, but in reality produces a slight arc. For a long time, I used the pendelum approach for chipping also.

This reminds me of an "Instruction" forum thread on what is a Pitch shot. (Two years ago, I would have answered that, in addition to the different fly-roll ratios, that the Pitch shot has an arc like a normal golf swing, and a chip shot uses pendelum action. Lately, I have cultivated normal arc in the chip shots - simply allows smoother motion.)

I think pendulum stroke for putts and chips can be more reliable for persons who don't get to practice a lot, or persons with only moderate innate athletic ability. For pros and competition amateurs, however, I can see that the arc for chips and putts might integrate these strokes better with the rest of the golf swing.

For people who want to see what they do naturally, hit some putts with the new iPing http://www.ping.com/fitting/iPING.aspx putter fitting application for iPhones. iPing features a carrier clip (MSRP = $30) for holding your iPhone on the putter shaft. In one procedure, the iPing app averages data from five putts to determine your swing arc and general tempo.

[uttexas]

Definitely an arc putter. In the early aughts, after reading Pelz Putting Bible, I dedicated myself to his putting method. I would go months at a time just practicing putting. From the amount of practice I was doing, my long distance putting greatly improved, but I just couldn't improve 10 feet and under. My wife got me my first golf lesson, and I chose a putting lesson. After my instructor watched me hit some long putts (good putts), he had me putt shorter ones (bad). He asked, why are you changing your good putting stroke on the long putts to a bad one on the short putts. I said I was going straight back, straight through. My instructor explained that I was putting on an arc on long putts (more power) while inconsistently trying SBST on short putts In order to putt straight back, straight through you have to unnaturally abduct your rear shoulder and adduct your lead shoulder while limiting the natural pronation of the lead arm and the natural supination of the rear arm on the back stroke. To try going SBST, you are changing the natural way the shoulders turn. Shoulders are attached to an inclined spine. Your spine is a cylinder (round). The upper thoracic spine (where your shoulders are) is normally kyphotic. In the putting stroke, the natural biomechanical movement of the rear shoulder is up and in/ the front shoulder down and in. Why fight your body's normal biomechanics on something as stressful as putts (especially short putts)?

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

You got that right.

Just because a person actually does an arc doesn't mean it's Utley's method. His arc is really pronounced, thus what I mentioned previously about perfect squaring of the face. Rather than think of a SBST stroke, I think of trying to peripherally stay on the target line as long as possible (keeping the face perpendicular to it) going back and going through. It's a very slight arc, but its closer to straight than arc. Much closer to the SBST mindset IMO.

I don't think its splitting hairs.  I think it is pretty important.  Putting is the most scientific part of the game, IMO.  A small tweak can work wonders or wreak havoc and, while that is true in the full swing, not to the same extent IMO.

I agree "Arc" is not "utley's method".  However, if you read the two books, Pelz presents a very scientific approach backed by robotics he has constructed to mimic different putting styles on perfect greens.  He presents tens of thousands of putts with these robotic methods to determine the best method of putting with the human variable removed.  Does this mean its the best for you? No, it doesn't.  However, Pelz presents it in a very scientific way that makes sense and appeals to golfers and, again, I didn't think those advocating Pelz in this thread really knew his theories.  Utley, in his book, which i just re-read after reading this thread, says things like "An arc'd putting stroke allows players to unlock their talent."  I mean, OK, but that isn't really scientific and his statements don't resonate with me.  I didn't want people to read this thread and be turned off of Pelz.

Different strokes for different folks, obvioulsy, but I really like how Pelz presents a comprehensive system with benchmarks for improvement.  Utley doesn't do that.  Pelz's data that the best putters in the world are certainly not on the PGA Tour is really compelling - unlike virtually every other area of the game, including short game, the best putters in the world are not PGA Pros.  That was very interesting to me.  his presentation of SBST strokes among those in the top 8 at the world putting championships (which, IIRC, did not include a single PGA tour pro although a bunch entered) is really compelling that SBST is a superior way to putt.

Quote:

In the early aughts, after reading Pelz Putting Bible, I dedicated myself to his putting method. I would go months at a time just practicing putting. From the amount of practice I was doing, my long distance putting greatly improved, but I just couldn't improve 10 feet and under. My wife got me my first golf lesson, and I chose a putting lesson. After my instructor watched me hit some long putts (good putts), he had me putt shorter ones (bad). He asked, why are you changing your good putting stroke on the long putts to a bad one on the short putts. I said I was going straight back, straight through. My instructor explained that I was putting on an arc on long putts (more power) while inconsistently trying SBST on short putts

Did you actually do his program, or just "practice" the theories he says by hitting putts on a green?  Did you get putter rails, a truthborad (<-thats all you really need of his gadgets) and hit the number of putts per day he prescribes for real improvement (about 90 every day)?  If so, and it didn't work, then fine, but from your description that doesn't sound like what happened.  I'm pretty impressed your instructor could tell the difference between an arc'd stroke and a SBST stroke that close to the hole with his naked eye.  That is incredibly hard to do.  Its sounds to me like you were generating power from a body pivot, and when you got short you had no pivot and so no acceleration of the hands (Pelz discusses this in his troubleshooting section and it leads to exactly the misses you describe).

Quote:

In order to putt straight back, straight through you have to unnaturally abduct your rear shoulder and adduct your lead shoulder while limiting the natural pronation of the lead arm and the natural supination of the rear arm on the back stroke. To try going SBST, you are changing the natural way the shoulders turn. Shoulders are attached to an inclined spine. Your spine is a cylinder (round). The upper thoracic spine (where your shoulders are) is normally kyphotic. In the putting stroke, the natural biomechanical movement of the rear shoulder is up and in/ the front shoulder down and in. Why fight your body's normal biomechanics on something as stressful as putts (especially short putts)?

Because it is better.  You remove a piece of the swing that can cause error (the toe moving faster than the heel).  When you say "the shoulders" don't move that way, what you are really saying is "the big muscles that control the shoulders (which is actually in the upper back) move that way naturally".  Pelz wants you to put using the small muscles in your shoulders, which can go left to right pretty far (certainly far enough to putt 60-70 feet with a standard putter weight).  His drills isolate this movement and make it feel natural.  A good way to feel these muscles is to take an elastic exercise band, anchor it to a wall.  Turn sideways to the wall and flex your back like you are trying to hold a ball in your shoulder blades.  Then, move your arm away from the wall slowly and back.  With your back holding the imaginary ball, you can't use that muscle to turn your shoudlers, and you can feel them slide back adn forward.  Give it a shot.