"Deep" Hands Explained (or "Depth")

[passintime]

I practiced with this extensively over the past 1.5 weeks or so. I have seen a big improvement in consistently hitting the ball well and hitting it where I want to go. I know one of my major problems was a takeaway that was too straight back. I feel because of this, my right arm was separating from my body. I also noticed another amazing thing. Increased distance with my irons and driver. I find myself being able to use my body more to swing rather than my arms. I outdrove my usual drives on my home course by a lot, and found myself going for 8 or 9 irons on par 3's where I usually have a 7. This forum is a wealth of information, but this explanation has been the biggest improvement to my swing this year. Thanks guys!

[MJP]

I know from personal experience that it can be difficult to see the real ball flight when you are hitting a shot. Identifying subtle differences in the initial direction of the ball. I'm hitting on a simulator from time to time, and it was there I noticed the ball contacted the screen left of where I was aiming, and the screen is 2 yards from where I hit the ball. Took a look at my grip and I've been using a strong right hand grip, and closing the clubface. Once I got the right hand closer to neutral, things started straight again.

That would be very helpful to have something to hit at. I can just tell because I use an aim stick aimed exactly at a flag stick and if it starts out right of that then I know I pushed it. But I never really thought about how a straight or pull draw actually draws much more (even hooks) than a push draw and thought maybe I was swinging too inside out. Of course I wasn't, it was simply too closed at impact.

[MJP]

I practiced with this extensively over the past 1.5 weeks or so. I have seen a big improvement in consistently hitting the ball well and hitting it where I want to go. I know one of my major problems was a takeaway that was too straight back. I feel because of this, my right arm was separating from my body. I also noticed another amazing thing. Increased distance with my irons and driver. I find myself being able to use my body more to swing rather than my arms. I outdrove my usual drives on my home course by a lot, and found myself going for 8 or 9 irons on par 3's where I usually have a 7. This forum is a wealth of information, but this explanation has been the biggest improvement to my swing this year. Thanks guys!

Couldn't agree more. I feel like this site can teach me more about striking a golf ball correctly than a lot of PGA professionals (some are just downright bad and only want your money).

[CuppedTin]

What is the purpose of this swing path besides Push-Draw ball flight? Why not go straight back and straight through?

Not saying it's wrong, just curious...

[Stretch]

Angular momentum, which equals power.

Also, seriously, why not just post this in one of the main S&T; threads instead of spamming out yet another new topic?

[MiniBlueDragon]

Stretch's kinda right about the new thread thing.

The best explanation is to think about a field goal kicker or a penalty taker; they kick with angular momentum as it's more efficient then straight back and straight through.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Angular momentum, which equals power.

Also, seriously, why not just post this in one of the main S&T; threads instead of spamming out yet another new topic?

Because, seriously, I did'n't find an S&T; Thread that addressed this...

And with 14,516 members on this forum, you really only have the same 11-40 people on here every day. So does it really matter?

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Stretch's kinda right about the new thread thing.

The best explanation is to think about a field goal kicker or a penalty taker; they kick with angular momentum as it's more efficient then straight back and straight through.

Thanks mini...

[nevets88]

Why not straight back and through? I am guessing and experts please correct me if I am wrong, but part of it is when you shoulder down that steepens the backswing and the hands deep/hands in counteracts that. If I don't do hands deep, I lift up and don't reroute back in on the downswing and fat it. That is me though. YMMV.

And another thing, to me, hands deep feels pretty flat and I'd thought (many moons ago) that that would result in a low ball flight, but nope, that is so not the case.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by nevets88

Why not straight back and through? I am guessing and experts please correct me if I am wrong, but part of it is when you shoulder down that steepens the backswing and the hands deep/hands in counteracts that. If I don't do hands deep, I lift up and don't reroute back in on the downswing and fat it. That is me though. YMMV.

And another thing, to me, hands deep feels pretty flat and I'd thought (many moons ago) that that would result in a low ball flight, but nope, that is so not the case.

I like the weight stacked and tilting, but for some reason I am having much better luck with feeling like Olin Browne/Moe Norman/Gary Woodland do on their practice swings before they hit. I like feeling as though I'm taking the club way outside to in (hands stay in close), and divots are straight... It could be that I was so far inside that doing this gives me the sensation of going back outside yet I'm still really inside a little.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

What is the purpose of this swing path besides Push-Draw ball flight? Why not go straight back and straight through?

Look, I mean this in a nice way, but if you have to ask questions like this you should probably stop helping people with their swings, because this is something awfully basic.

The hands don't go "inside" - virtually every other swing and especially the modern "width" swing has the hands going OUTSIDE or ABOVE the plane. The S&T; swing simply aims to keep the hands on their plane throughout the swing. Width has to be measured three dimensionally, and like the clubhead, the hands go BACK, UP, and IN.

Plus, if the hands never go in, how can you hit from the inside?

Originally Posted by Stretch

Also, seriously, why not just post this in one of the main S&T; threads instead of spamming out yet another new topic?

He's been warned about this a few times. It's getting old.

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

Because, seriously, I did'n't find an S&T; Thread that addressed this...

Uh, this thread. More reading, please.

Originally Posted by nevets88

Why not straight back and through?

As you started to get to... because we play on a plane that's tilted and we're bent over.

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

I like the weight stacked and tilting, but for some reason I am having much better luck with feeling like Olin Browne/Moe Norman/Gary Woodland do on their practice swings before they hit. I like feeling as though I'm taking the club way outside to in (hands stay in close), and divots are straight... It could be that I was so far inside that doing this gives me the sensation of going back outside yet I'm still really inside a little.

Without video who knows if what you're feeling is accurate and doesn't merit much discussion. Furthermore, they practice a release and don't have much to do with the backswing. You seem to get obsessed with certain things. Lately it's been Olin Browne's pre-shot routine. In mentioning it perhaps you'll give this tendency to become obsessed some thought. You've not put serious practice in with this - it's been a few days. Be honest with yourself... you want to build a swing that lasts, not a bunch of band-aid swings based on something you see on TV and what something "feels" like to you on one or two given days.

[golfdu]

I don't know why but my ball goes so much longer and higher with high hands than deep hands. Is this strange, Erik? I seem to get a consistent 3 yard draw with high hands, like 1997 Tiger.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by golfdu

I don't know why but my ball goes so much longer and higher with high hands than deep hands. Is this strange, Erik? I seem to get a consistent 3 yard draw with high hands, like 1997 Tiger.

One possibility: with high hands you uncock the club and let your head drift backwards in order to still hit the draw (it's common among better players whose hands get above the plane needed to hit a draw). Perhaps with deeper hands your upper center remains stable or even goes forward a bit.

Additionally, with high hands you finish with higher hands, which makes your body extend better, and with "deep" hands you remain in flexion too long and hit the ball low(er).

Two possible reasons, but they'd have very different impact and post-impact looks that vary in far more than just where your hands are.

Point being again there's nothing inherent in one or the other that hits the ball high. Put your swing on good video, FO and DL views, and look. Feel ain't real.

[i-Guy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

None

That probably depends on the person.In me, it manifests itself as a right hip that hasn't turned back quite as much, a clubhead that gets behind my hands at CPA, and I get a bit too steep coming down because I rotate my hips too much (because I can't push enough, because the hip didn't rotate enough).Plus, of course, I lose the pressure points in my armpits, particularly the right one.

Hmmm...interesting as I have been having some of the same feelings and results while performing the S&T...but; I have a question...could my hands not be going deep enough because I am not tilting correctly (shoulder down) on the backswing.  Lately I have been frustrated with my distance (which I use to have with the S&T;) as I still hit the ball pretty darn straight but not producing the distance I am use to...then the other night while playing a few holes and getting frustrated with my distance I hit a 9 iron 150 yards (back of the green) by focusing on my shoulder going more down (toward the ball) on my backswing...I am assuming this caused my right hip to turn up and back correctly and hands deep which put me in the position to slide into the downswing versus having to turn my hips like described in the quote above?  Now I just need to get back to making this move on a more consistent basis...correct?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by i-Guy

Hmmm...interesting as I have been having some of the same feelings and results while performing the S&T...but; I have a question...could my hands not be going deep enough because I am not tilting correctly (shoulder down) on the backswing.  Lately I have been frustrated with my distance (which I use to have with the S&T;) as I still hit the ball pretty darn straight but not producing the distance I am use to...then the other night while playing a few holes and getting frustrated with my distance I hit a 9 iron 150 yards (back of the green) by focusing on my shoulder going more down (toward the ball) on my backswing...I am assuming this caused my right hip to turn up and back correctly and hands deep which put me in the position to slide into the downswing versus having to turn my hips like described in the quote above?  Now I just need to get back to making this move on a more consistent basis...correct?

I bolded what I imagine is the most important part. Hips are crucial to distance because the proper hip turn allows the shoulders to turn the proper way and the proper amount .

[i-Guy]

Originally Posted by iacas

I bolded what I imagine is the most important part. Hips are crucial to distance because the proper hip turn allows the shoulders to turn the proper way and the proper amount.

Thanks and I agree but I guess the point I was trying to make is it is hard to leave your weight left and make a (somewhwat level) shoulder turn and get enough hip turn...on the other hand as the S&T; promotes if you can turn your left shoulder down on the back swing "I Feel" like that puts everything (shoulder and hip turn) in the proper position, thereby, giving you accruacy and power...no?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by i-Guy

Thanks and I agree but I guess the point I was trying to make is it is hard to leave your weight left and make a (somewhwat level) shoulder turn and get enough hip turn...on the other hand as the S&T; promotes if you can turn your left shoulder down on the back swing "I Feel" like that puts everything (shoulder and hip turn) in the proper position, thereby, giving you accruacy and power...no?

Weight is barely left. Call it "centered" if you'd like, in fact. 55/45 or 50/50.

Level shoulder turns aren't "shoulders moving in a circle," which I find to be less efficient.

In other words, what you "feel" is correct, yes. Left shoulder down allows your shoulders to turn in a circle. Ideally your hips turn in their own circle as well (you can have steep shoulders and no hip turn, though it's not necessarily as easy or ideal).

[i-Guy]

Originally Posted by iacas

Weight is barely left. Call it "centered" if you'd like, in fact. 55/45 or 50/50.

Level shoulder turns aren't "shoulders moving in a circle," which I find to be less efficient.

In other words, what you "feel" is correct, yes. Left shoulder down allows your shoulders to turn in a circle. Ideally your hips turn in their own circle as well (you can have steep shoulders and no hip turn, though it's not necessarily as easy or ideal).

Thanks and maybe that is my issue...that sometimes I get a good shoulder turn (in a circle) but don't turn my hips enough...and then vice versa???

When I first tried the S&T; (a while back) I was just stripping the ball...then I changed and went back to a classic swing (after 8 months off and shoulder surgery...not from golf) and that did not work out like I thought...I really like so many things about the S&T; but I am having some difficulites finding my way back...I think that sometimes I get sort of a hybrid swing going (S&T; / Classical) and that does not produce good results...I recently started working with a Pro who went to one of Mike and Andy's seminars in Orlando and he thinks the S&T; is a very good swing and is willing to work me on it...wish me luck!