The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[cbrian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Nah. I don't buy it. You can't call "the information" "stack and tilt" and application of information is to create an end result: a swing. Stack and Tilt is an inline, elbow-plane, centered pivot golf swing.

The "information" is physics, geometry, biomechanics. It's TGM and MORAD. It's classification and categorization. The end result of which is a swing or a pattern or a method of swinging a golf club.

But at the same time people have demonstrated the variations of the pattern since the name was created. If it is just "a swing" then how can you have variations? In my opinion, what is marketed is different than what is taught. What is marketed is a simplified pattern that is aimed at your average golfer. Basically what they thought would benefit the most golfers. What is taught varies from player to player. The result is the player's swing.

I consider S&T; to be a condensed version of some of the information, but not so condensed that it can be locked down into one possible swing. I feel the player can take bits and pieces and create his or her own swing.

Quote:

I disagree that it's difficult to get the information out there without a label. Why couldn't it simply be "what Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer teach"? What's the name of the Haney method of swinging a golf club? He doesn't have one because he's never labeled it, even if he teaches the same thing to everyone. What about Leadbetter? Harmon, does he have a method? Hardy won't teach anyone a two-plane swing unless you really force him to, but he gets credit for having "two" models.

I can stay open minded all day but it doesn't change the fact that S&T; is a swing. There's a video called "Charlie Wi hitting all the positions," and the site and domain name themselves say "swing."

Lately people have tried to redefine it because they find themselves getting backed into corners a bit, but it is what it is: a swing. If you don't "hit all of the positions" you don't have a "Stack and Tilt Swing." You can be working towards it, and others who don't have an "S&T; Swing" can apply a piece or two from the ten words, for example, and that's good for them, perhaps, but it's a swing.

If you wanted to list, what, all 24 components from TGM you could do that. There's not a lot of flexibility in the model, and frankly, that's a big part of the reason why we've "evolved" beyond a single-swing way of instruction.

That is what it was until they started to take it to the public. Then, as I understand it, they were told they needed a name.

And maybe I'm different because of how I learned the information and how to teach it. No need to go into that story, but, as you know, I didn't just get to copy what I had seen. I had to figure it out the hard way. However, I think that should be an example of how it can mean different things to different people.

Ultimately I don't care... a definition doesn't change anything for me.

[iacas]

MORAD is information. TGM is information. S&T; is a swing - there are positions to be hit and the website and the URL say "swing," so I'm going with that.

Now, on to topics that matter, perhaps.

[BrewsnBogies]

Hi all,

New member here, and I'm glad I found this site.

I have been reading a little bit about S&T; and after going through some posts on this site; I'm moving in that direction.  Got my S&T; book in the mail yesterday from Amazon, read the first two chapters, and now I think I know where my good scoring from my early years disappeared to.

I used to be a good, consistent striker of the ball, pinched it real well (hit the ground in front of the ball) and drove through it, and had a nice, controllable, slight push draw ball flight.  Then somewhere down the line I started reading too much golf or golf digest and started bringing my club straight back as low as possible, keeping the shaft alighed with target line, kept my shoulders level, got real upright, started getting real inconsistent with my weight shifts, and got real upright and OTT.  S&T; reminds me of my yesteryears, and I think I'll go back.

Looking forward to the good tips from the site; While I'm doing that, I'll digest the contents of my book while I waste away here in the Wisconsin winter!

Gary

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by BrewsnBogies

... I think I know where my good scoring from my early years disappeared to.

... I started reading too much golf or golf digest

Yep that'll do it for you.

Welcome to TST.

[MbolicGolf]

So I don't exactly do S&T; but I have some of the elements in my swing. the problem is now I am inconsistent. So I was thinking about being agressive with S&T; to gain consistency in my swing. I am however a dumb jock of sort and like to hit the ball far. While this won't preclude me from going full S&T; does it drop alot of distance of a conventional swing or is it minimal if at all?

Thanks for indulinge my dumb question.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MbolicGolf

So I don't exactly do S&T; but I have some of the elements in my swing. the problem is now I am inconsistent. So I was thinking about being agressive with S&T; to gain consistency in my swing. I am however a dumb jock of sort and like to hit the ball far. While this won't preclude me from going full S&T; does it drop alot of distance of a conventional swing or is it minimal if at all?

Thanks for indulinge my dumb question.

We've never had a student lose distance.

Many will gain distance simply on purity of contact, some will swing faster as well.

I'm not sure of those numbers, but the one I'm sure of is 0 losing distance.

[MbolicGolf]

Originally Posted by iacas

We've never had a student lose distance.

Many will gain distance simply on purity of contact, some will swing faster as well.

I'm not sure of those numbers, but the one I'm sure of is 0 losing distance.

Thanks Erik,

Do you know a S & T teacher in Michigan?

[BrettZenewicz]

Nick Clearwater is in Chicago ... not sure about specifically Michigan.

[Mordan]

Just got home after a Friday night out and put on my Sky Sports recording of the Pebble Beach Pro Am. In the UK we get PGA Tour coverage from the two channels via Sky Sports, and when they're doing extra ads etc we get UK presenters filling in time.

They got onto Stack & Tilt, I think because of the coverage of Charlie Wi. And there was mention of "the golf swing was the same for two or three hundred years until these guys came along with a new idea", and a mention of stack and tilt "ruining" a couple of players, and the word "fad" was used multiple times. All without any explanation of what stack and tilt is or justification for their statements.

I generally skip over the filler segments anyway, rarely is there much of note in there but it's just disappointing that they offer no analysis, or even reasoning to back up their statements. All said while the current leader "is" stack and tilt, and they didn't seem to appreciate the irony of that.

[mvmac]

How about Charlie?  Hope he gets the win

http://www.pgatour.com/video/r/highlights/interviews/2012/02/11/qt_12pebble_rnd3_wi_prs.pgatour/index.html

[sk golf]

Looking forward to see how things play out tomorrow...

[Kujan]

How about Charlie?  Hope he gets the win

He's very relaxed. Good sign. Go get 'em Charlie!

[steventimothy]

I just got the s&T; book, which is great. Lots of pictures! The best thing about S&T; for me is that they really focussed the discussion on what happens at impact. After drilling myself for months to not let the left wrist break down, keeping the "flying wedge", I've noticed that I can use a variety of swings, some even ridiculous, and if the left wrist stays firm, I'll still make good contact with the ball. That's helped my chipping & putting as well. It's definitely the biggest error most bad players make.

The other thing is that S&T; is easier on my back. It's just obvious if you think about it. If you move your head off the ball on the backswing, then leave it in that position on the downswing, the transfer of weight will bend your back more and put more strain on the lumbar.

[Danattherock]

Relating to a new student implementing S&T; components into their swing and getting a case of the shanks...

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Thanks Erik. It's only now and then as he usually hits a draw. However, recently he's developed a shank. His path is from the inside, because when he's hitting the ball solidly his misses are either pushes or over-draws. When the shank appears (or poor contact), I'm convinced it's because he is releasing the club face by rotating his right hand over his left through impact which occasionally sends the path to the outside and across the ball.

I was simply wondering if you had seen this sort of thing with your students going from slicers to drawers of the golf ball.

I am having this exact issue. I am the guy you are talking about (figuratively). I have always hit a strong draw/hook or a push/block. Those are my misses.

About 2 months ago, 3 lessons worth, I have been implementing some S&T; components into my swing. I have developed an intermittent case of the shanks. First time ever in 20 years of playing golf. I have much to learn, still in progress with the S&T; parts of my new swing. I am having some great ball striking days. But having some days where I am topping the 3W off the tee, shanking my irons, and it sucks. Good and bad days, but in a severe way. Perhaps normal when making such a big swing change. I don't know, never done it before.

Any idea as to why adopting S&T; components could lead to a shank?

Taking another lesson soon, but after what happened to me on the course yesterday, I am literally losing sleep.

-Dan

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Danattherock

Any idea as to why adopting S&T; components could lead to a shank?

No. We could guess but it'd be just that - a complete guess.

I wrote up a post about the shanks recently that listed every possible cause of a shank. The list was one item long: the sweet spot of the club is being delivered too far towards the outside of the golf ball.

Fixing the shanks is easy once you really understand that. Why are you delivering the sweet spot outside of the golf ball? Is your weight at setup poorly distributed towards your heels? Are your arms too far "out"? Etc. What's making the sweet spot come down outside of where it should be?

[Apotheosis]

Here is a review of the stack and tilt from a fantastic web site.  The author really explains well, from a biomechanics prospective, TGM.  Read some of his articles your game will get better.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/stackandtilt.htm

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Apotheosis

Here is a review of the stack and tilt from a fantastic web site.  The author really explains well, from a biomechanics prospective, TGM.  Read some of his articles your game will get better.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/stackandtilt.htm

Uh oh, Erik I'll have you deal with this

[Danattherock]

Thanks Erik. I will search for the shank article. Problem I am having, it is the first time I have ever had the shanks. New territory if you will. To complicate things, my swing is changing so I am not in touch with it like my old (flawed) swing. My instructor said I was dropping my right shoulder and that made my normal inside/out swing path more so. This made sense as it relates to shanking and using the box drill helped. Thought it was gone then the other day playing up at Mid Pines, shanks creeped in my game. Very frustrating of course. Will keep working on it. Seems the issue is I am doing some of what he is teaching mixed with some old bad swing habits. The results are volatile. It will pass I am sure. When I am hitting the ball well now, it is better than ever. That too contributes to the frustration of the appearance of the shanks. Highs and lows emotionally. What a game.

-Dan