The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

Does anyone else really struggle to hit their driver with S&T?

Before S&T my driver was the most consistent part of my game. It was never really long (225-240) with a slight fade, but now it's terrible. 80% of my swings are over-fades. I love S&T because I hit my irons more consistent and longer than before. But the driver is giving me fits!!!

[Fatphil]

Does anyone else really struggle to hit their driver with S&T?

I'm no expert in S&T so take this for what it's worth...but I had a similar experience...What I noticed is when you bring your hands in really deep and are at or below your trailing shoulder at the top if u don't make a full shoulder turn my arms basically bumped into my chest. I didn't notice this effect with my shorter clubs simply because the swing is shorter. My half ass conclusion is that the deep hands action needs to be done in conjunction with the turning the shoulders downward and also making a fairly full shoulder turn.

If your hands are more outside than what S&T teaches it is much easier to make a full swing using a crappy shoulder turn as your arms are outside your shoulders...but if your hands are in line or below your trailing shoulder your arms have nowhere to go if you dont make a full shoulder turn. Another point that you need to be careful with is understanding that taking your hands deep is different from the club head. I won't even try to explain that one.

[david_wedzik]

Additionally to #1 - the backswing is part side tilt, part turning the lead shoulder inward (feels like it is replacing the back shoulder) and part extension - be sure of enough relative shoulder turn and extension to go with the side tilt.

The most important thing with the driver is to move forward enough and extend enough (expand chest/tuck butt) to compensate for the forward ball position of the driver.

[david_wedzik]

Does anyone else really struggle to hit their driver with S&T;?

Dr. Fu - the ball position is forward so you need to go forward more and extend to hit the ball while it is "still" on the backside of the circle. If the ball is STARTING way right do be sure to check the grip and club face alignments as well....but only if it is starting well to the right. Here is a link to my blog post re: Stack and Tilt and the driver:

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/entries...and-the-driver Dave

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

Thanks Dave. I will try your points from the blog and see if that helps.

Can you explain how Baddeley gets away with his lower body move? It appears he doesn't have a long lateral shift, but merely a bump and rotation.
The book and you both point out that you should have a longer lateral shift, but I just don't see it with Aaron

[iacas]

Can you explain how Baddeley gets away with his lower body move? It appears he doesn't have a long lateral shift, but merely a bump and rotation.

Three things:

a) you can't see a big lateral shift from a down-the-line view very easily. b) pros can make anything aggressive look smooth, as can slow motion; double up on it and a lot of the aggressiveness fades away c) Peter Kostis points out the leg drive and lower body movement repeatedly in the video...

[bluebird]

Have been taking a lot of interest in this thread over the last week or so.
I decided to give s+t a go a couple of days ago on the range with promising results.
The only problem with the range mats is that you cant see where your divots are pointing,so i
went to the practice area sunday and hit of the turf,only to be surprised to see the divot pointing
slightly left of the target,should i expect to see the divot pointing to the right.What are other peoples experiance regarding
where their divots point , or am still doing something wrong.My divots have always pointed slightly left however hard ive tried to
hit in to out. Any input much appreciated.

[RIduffer]

Have been taking a lot of interest in this thread over the last week or so.

One component of the S&T basic form is "arms straight". The idea is to keep both arms straight well beyond impact. I think this could help improve your swing path. Really try to exaggerate the feeling of the arms staying fully extended through to your finish. This has helped me alot lately.

FWIW, I remember one instructor (slicefixer I think?) saying that divots pointing slightly left do not neccessarily mean you are out-in or over-the-top. He mentioned that some great ballstrikers get the club moving left very quickly after impact, so the end of the divot would actually point slightly left. So, if the contact and ballflight is OK, the divot might not be a problem.

[keb]

I was swinging in front of mirror and it appeared to me that my stance had widened to make it easier to get back leg straight. I couldn't find anything in Mike and Andy's book that specifically addresses this issue. It may very well be that stance just looks wider because of recommended outward rotation of feet which is different that my pre S & T stance. Can you help me out on this.

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

Did anyone else see Peter Kostis breaking down Ian Poulter's swing on Swingvision today during the WGC? During Poulter's backswing, Kostis emphasis was on his right leg going from bent to straight, saying something to the effect that you should avoid this move at all costs.

Having recently made the switch to S&T, all I can say is this is one move that I am glad I haven't avoided. That move gives me more hip turn, better shoulder turn, and in turn has given me much better ball striking.

[iacas]

Did anyone else see Peter Kostis breaking down Ian Poulter's swing on Swingvision today during the WGC? During Poulter's backswing, Kostis emphasis was on his right leg going from bent to straight, saying something to the effect that you should avoid this move at all costs.

Add Kostis to The List!

Dummy. Paul Casey has some of the lousiest positions of any of the final four players. On the one drive they analyzed (I saved it so I could put it on YouTube later) BOTH of his heels were well off the ground WAY before impact.

[Andrew Rice]

I saw Kostis chirping that Poulter's le g was no good and I saw the announcers talking along similar lines about Dustin Johnson's arm and wrist position up top during the AT&T.; (BTW, Poulter's leg is exactly like Sam Snead's was and DJ's wrists looked just like Tom Watson's did in his prime!) When will golfers and instructors get it? You don't need to be perfect to have success - just obey certain laws of ball-striking. We are all so caught up in the look of all these golf swings and the facts are that looks mean squat !
Find out what you need do to make the ball go, swing in your own unique style, and give it a rip. Just like pinky Poulter!

[The Hacker]

Great thread. My daughter just started playing golf at her high school, and it has given me the reason I needed to start playing golf again. I plan to start back up this week. I stumbled upon this forum today, and I've read this entire thread this evening. Good stuff!

I will make a comment/observation that may or may not be helpful, but I hope it will be. I haven't played much golf the last 5 years or so, but before that I was playing a lot. I was always a mid-upper 80s golfer due to inconsistent direction with irons and woods - always long, but rarely consistent flight. I made some swing adjustments just through some trial and error experimenting, and I stumbled on some things that really worked well. In reading this thread about Stack & Tilt swings, I think this is similar to what I stumbled upon for myself back then.

I had seen a training aid infomercial a few years ago that advertised a practice club that had a sliding lower portion of the grip. The idea was that by letting your right hand slide up the shaft during the back swing and then slide back to the "normal" grip position during impact and through the release, then you would train your right elbow to stay in closer and develop an inside/out swing followed by a good extension toward the target through the release. I didn't buy the club with the sliding grip, but I did try making some practice swings while sliding my right hand up the shaft during the back swing. Also, I was doing a lot of this practicing in my office with an 8-foot ceiling. I am pretty sure that was forcing me to not let my back swing fly up and out too much.

I also focused on keeping my eyes directly over the ball throughout the entire swing. I wasn't really thinking about "stacking" or leaning toward the target or anything - just keeping my eyes on top of the ball. I didn't worry about what my legs were doing, but in order to get a full turn in the back with my eye and left shoulder on top of the ball, my right leg would straighten out and my left knee would flex some. Oh yeah, and I kept my toes turned outside my heels a little bit so I could rotate my hips better.

The last thing I focused on was driving my lower body forward toward the target through impact and releasing my hands and the club head straight downrange toward the target. I always started with the ball well forward in my stance (just inside my left heel), so I would drive my legs and hips well forward to get passed the ball at impact.

Anyway, once I started this swing instead of the old rocking back on the right foot and then rocking forward to the left deal that I'd been taught years before, I started hitting consistent laser beams. Now, my chipping was still weak, so I was still a hacker. But I went from shooting mid-upper 80s to shooting high-70s to low-80s. It was actually kind of bad because I was hitting so long and straight that most of my 2nd shots on par 4s were less than full swing wedge shots (the weakest part of my game). Driving up close to the green and 2 putting is good, but if you chip twice it still sucks.

Sorry for the long post, but does it sound like I was doing something similar to the Stack & Tilt? If so, maybe my "swing thoughts" might be beneficial for somebody? If not, then nevermind.

I've just ordered the book. I'm hoping that I can find that groove again (eventually) when I dust off the clubs. I'm thinking that the S&T; book and the info here will help me. Again, sorry for the long-winded post.

[jamo]

I saw Kostis chirping that

Very well said sir, very well said. Now, just to figure out how to make the ball go......

[RIduffer]

This is a response to The Hacker. Yes, it does sound like you are using alot of S&T components. One thing to remember too, is that it's OK to just use pieces of the S&T pattern--you don't have to do everything exactly.

I think alot of people stumble onto some of the ideas before ever hearing about S&T, like you. For example, I used to use a "weight on the front foot" swing when I wanted to hit a low punch shot. I noticed that I would always hit the ball really flush, and it travelled as far (often farther) than my normal full swing (even though I was only using a 1/2 swing on the punch shot). Hearing about S&T basically legitimized what I had already found in a way.

Let us know how you get on with the book.

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

One component of the S&T; basic form is "arms straight". The idea is to keep both arms straight well beyond impact. I think this could help improve your swing path. Really try to exaggerate the feeling of the arms staying fully extended through to your finish. This has helped me alot lately.

I am not sure what type of shot Charlie is play, but his divot is pointing left.

[iacas]

I am not sure what type of shot Charlie is play, but his divot is pointing left.

I see it as pretty much on his foot line. Real close, and the camera position and angle can be deceiving. The club will go left after impact because the plane continues back up and in just like on the takeaway. The ball flight looks to be pretty straight. Nothing out of the ordinary on that shot... Ball contacted just on the back side of the circle and exits on the front side of the circle.

[The Hacker]

Let us know how you get on with the book.

I will. Thanks.