Two 'academic' Rules questions

[Ignorant]

Match play. Player tees off from a wrong teeing ground and hits his ball OB. Opponent does not recall the shot so the player is obliged to drop the ball as near as possible to the spot from which the original ball was played (Rules 11-5 and 27-1b).

Now, the tee the player used is not removed by player's stroke but is still standing erect.

Q1: When the player drops his ball and it hits the tee, must the player re-drop the ball (i.e. is the tee equipment or not)?

Q2: There is a winter rule in force through the green and the dropped ball ends up at rest 2 inches in front of the tee. May the player place his ball on the tee?

[James_Black]

I'd say yes to both questions.

[jamo]

1- only if it finishes closer to the hole i think.
2- yes

[goblue107501]

I don't know every rule and penalty in the book but here are my general thoughts. My first thought is that once a tee is used and is left in the ground it is no longer equipment and becomes a loose impediment. So if the ball hits the tee it won't matter and the tee could then be moved.

My second thought is that it doesn't really matter in this case, the drop would be unacceptable since it moved closer to the hole. Unless the player just gets really lucky with the drop, there is no way the ball can go back on the tee. Since it is a drop resulting from playing on the wrong teeing ground, the ball cannot be re-teed under any circumstances.

I don't know the rules as well as some, so correct me if I am wrong. Maybe I'll learn something.

[iacas]

Why does it seem that your only posts here are rules related?

Additionally, you list your location as Europe, and while R&A; rules are nearly identical to USGA rules, they're not all written exactly the same.

What you have here is a convoluted and, frankly, highly unlikely situation. Even still, the basics are covered by the Decisions:

Source: Decision 11-5/3
Q. A played B in a match. A drove out of bounds from the wrong teeing ground. B did not recall the stroke. What is the ruling?

A. As A played from the wrong teeing ground and B did not require him to cancel the stroke and play a ball from within the correct teeing ground, A's ball has been put into play (See Definition of "Ball in Play").

Therefore, under Rule 27-1 A must drop a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was played, i.e., on the wrong teeing ground. He could not tee the ball because the original ball was not played from the teeing ground of the hole being played (Rule 20-5).

Then you get the definition of equipment.

Source: USGA Definitions
Equipment
"Equipment" is anything used, worn or carried by the player or anything carried for the player by his partner or either of their caddies, except any ball he has played at the hole being played and any small object, such as a coin or a tee, when used to mark the position of a ball or the extent of an area in which a ball is to be dropped. Equipment includes a golf cart, whether or not motorized.

Since the tee marks exactly where the drop area is, it's no longer equipment.

But it's also not a part of the course - it's an measurement aid - so the player must re-drop in answer to your first question. Which kind of makes the second question irrelevant - if the ball ends up nearer to the hole you need to re-drop. If it rolls there twice (after first striking the course, not your foot, not a tee, etc.) you place it. Any dumb winter rules you're playing would only take effect after the ball is legally in play, and since they likely require a drop too (not placement), it'd almost be pointless.

[MiniMoe]

The tee is not equipment, it is a movable obstruction. You do not re-drop and the ball is in play, unless of course it rolls closer to the hole. If the ball comes to rest against the tee, the tee may be removed and if the ball moves, it should be replaced without penalty.

[Ignorant]

Since the tee marks exactly where the drop area is, it's no longer equipment.

Well, the point in this question was if the tee was originally inserted into the ground in order to mark the position of the ball or for another purpose, and if the status of the tee will be changed during the course of event.

Any dumb winter rules you're playing would only take effect after the ball is legally in play, and since they likely require a drop too (not placement), it'd almost be pointless.

I wonder why U say ‘dumb winter rules’? A winter rule is very basic stuff and a recommendation is rather explicitly described in the RoG (also respected in USA, I guess….). According to this recommendation the ball is to be placed, not dropped.

What if the dropped ball was in play (i.e. not closer to the hole)? Would it be allowed to place it on the tee? If not, what would be the Rule to forbid that?

[iacas]

Well, the point in this question was if the tee was originally inserted into the ground in order to mark the position of the ball or for another purpose, and if the status of the tee will be changed during the course of event.

Question answered. It's not equipment - it has morphed into a convenient way to measure the original point from which the ball was played.

According to this recommendation the ball is to be placed, not dropped.

You only place the ball after it's in play legitimately, and if the ball is known to be closer to the hole, it's not yet in play. You'd re-drop. Only after dropping it twice, correctly, and having the ball roll closer to the hole each time would you place it at the location it first struck the course, and then you'd use your winter rules from there if you still felt the need.

Would it be allowed to place it on the tee? If not, what would be the Rule to forbid that?

You'd never get to re-tee the ball in such a case.

Imagine someone is playing lift, clean, and place and his ball comes to rest in a fairway somewhere. To mark the position he puts a tee in the ground beside his ball to mark the position. The same rule that prevents that guy from "placing" the ball on the tee prevents the guy in your scenario from doing it as well.

[Ignorant]

Imagine someone is playing lift, clean, and place and his ball comes to rest in a fairway somewhere. To mark the position he puts a tee in the ground beside his ball to mark the position. The same rule that prevents that guy from "placing" the ball on the tee prevents the guy in your scenario from doing it as well.

And the Rule in question is..?

[Phil McGleno]

And the Rule in question is..?

The rule that will get you beat up if you try to put your ball on a tee when you're not allowed.

The rule that says you can't change the lie of the ball. Look it up. It's no surprise people don't know the exact rules - this is a common sense example of the rules. You don't get to put your ball on a tee. Derr. I looked at some of your old threads too. It seems like you act as if you know the answers, so why ask the questions?

[Ignorant]

The rule that will get you beat up if you try to put your ball on a tee when you're not allowed.

I am not asking questions of issues I am sure of, I am asking questions of issues I would like to get other opinions and new aspects to think about.

Change of lie is not that straightforward. In normal cases this 'teeing' would not be an issue (as iacas already pointed out) but in case of a winter rule in force situation changes. If the winter rule is in force through the green it is allowed for a player to alter the lie by placing the ball originally lying in the rough on the fairway. So once again, is there a rule that prohibids a player from placing his ball on a tee in case of winter rule (in force through the green)? And for clarity, I do not know such rule but in my opinion this would be contrary to the spirit of the game.

[Lefty-Golfer]

and how exactly would you T up from the wrong T area?? and assuming you did and you drop the ball properly and it ends up inches closer to the hole...who would care? you are now sitting a 357 yards 34 inches instead of 358!!! whoohoo.

The rules of golf are to ensure a fair game being played by all...use your damn head a little bit. You aren't on the PGA tour. no wonder rounds take so damn long. drop the damn ball and keep moving.

[Lefty-Golfer]

oh and after you T off you can't use a T again...unless you are stroke and distance from the T box...and you are hitting 3 from the T...so relax you just gave the hole away.

[Ignorant]

and how exactly would you T up from the wrong T area?? and assuming you did and you drop the ball properly and it ends up inches closer to the hole...who would care? you are now sitting a 357 yards 34 inches instead of 358!!! whoohoo.

Why do U get so upset? U mean that only on PGA Tour one should know / play by the Rules? As it says in the opening title this is surely an academic problem as this situation would arise extremely seldom. But as we can read from the Decisions Book some events described in there have bound to have happened maybe only once in a lifetime and still the Lords have found them to be valuable enough to be included.

But what if the object would not be a T but a coin, piece of plastic, a cap, glove or any other movable obstruction the ball could be placed on? Would it be allowed to place the ball on any movable obstruction?

[Lefty-Golfer]

Why do U get so upset? U mean that only on PGA Tour one should know / play by the Rules? As it says in the opening title this is surely an academic problem as this situation would arise extremely seldom. But as we can read from the Decisions Book some events described in there have bound to have happened maybe only once in a lifetime and still the Lords have found them to be valuable enough to be included.

If you are dumb enough to drop it on a hat, glove or whatever then freakin hit it!! LOL not mad at actually ammused.

Should we play by the rules? yes. However on Wed morning at your club in 10.00 match and the ball that was hit ob from the wrong T box moves 1.5 inches forward while hitting 3 from the dack on the same spot as where you dropped it...who cares. the spirit of the rules and the sirit of the game is in place...the scores, match or integrity of the game has not been compromised...who cares. Sorry need to leave for a meeting.

[Phil McGleno]

Ignorant, how about this? Why not rather than using everyone else as your unpaid research staff, you find the rule that says:

a) you're allowed to place the ball on a lie completely different from the one in which you originally had

b) you're allowed to litter the area of your intended drop with tees, hats, blankets, or anything else you see fit in the hopes that your ball will end up on them.

Why you bothering us? We know the rule even if we can't bother to find it. You play the ball as it lies. You don't get to move it.

Even if there's no particular rule that says you can't place your ball on a hat or a blanket, the rule of equity would kick your sorry arse to the curb and get you expelled from most groups of golfers.

I'm emailing the mods. Hope they close this thread on you. Look it up for yourself.

[Fourputt]

Match play. Player tees off from a wrong teeing ground and hits his ball OB. Opponent does not recall the shot so the player is obliged to drop the ball as near as possible to the spot from which the original ball was played (Rules 11-5 and 27-1b).

1) The tee once used and not recovered is a movable obstruction. No re-drop unless the ball rolls closer to the hole or rolls more than 2 clublengths.

2) Yes the player may place the ball on a tee that is left in the ground. There is nothing in the Rules that prevents him from placing the ball on an obstruction if the placement is otherwise within the procedure defined in the local rule.