Improving your lie where ever?

[sam4msu]

Sure it is made of metal. Does that make it smart to hit a tree root or a rock or gravel with it??? Im my opinion, you would have to be an utter and complete moron to do so. I do not play in tournaments, I do not care what my handicap is. I am quite aware that hitting into this crap is not what I want to do, I don't need to "learn" not to do it. Hitting from this crap will not teach me to hit the effin ball straight. I work my azz off to be able to afford to buy my golf equipment, and I will be damned if I will purposely put it in jeapordy. Remember, I said I may have to do this ONCE every 2-3 rounds. Get over yourself!!!

[prutkows]

If it's ground under repair, sure. Otherwise, no, not really.

well yeah, it very rarely happens. i mean things like a concrete/metal yardage marker in the ground/a drainage grate/an actual rock.. not gravel or dirt or tree roots. im talking a rock that if you hit with your club, the clubhead has a good chance of flying off. of course, i dont move the ball if a tree branch or something like that is in my swingpath, i really just dont want to completely break a club just to follow a rule, especially when its not an actual tournament.

[iacas]

Im my opinion, you would have to be an utter and complete moron to do so... Hitting from this crap will not teach me to hit the effin ball straight. I work my azz off to be able to afford to buy my golf equipment, and I will be damned if I will purposely put it in jeapordy. Get over yourself!!!

Cut the garbage talk and calm down. This is your first warning: act like a sensible adult. All I said was that you could chip out of the trouble instead of cheating. If you care so little about cheating, you shouldn't care too much about the extra stroke that adds to your score.

well yeah, it very rarely happens. i mean things like a concrete/metal yardage marker in the ground/a drainage grate/an actual rock.. not gravel or dirt or tree roots.

You get free relief from yardage markers, drainage grates, cart paths or collections of gravel. That doesn't count as "improving your lie."

[allin]

People will choose according to their own values period. What does amaze me is how many people get upset when I refuse to improve my lie during casual rounds even when I am not keeping score. My stock response is this is my chance to learn how to hit this shot so I know how when it counts. I guess they feel that you think you are superior or judging them. So to those who think that. this is just about us and how we think the game should be played, not about you.

[iacas]

What does amaze me is how many people get upset when I refuse to improve my lie during casual rounds even when I am not keeping score. I guess they feel that you think you are superior or judging them. So to those who think that. this is just about us and how we think the game should be played, not about you.

I think you're right, and I think there may be some of that going on in this thread.

For me, when I see people cheating (by improving their lie, etc.), then get defensive about it, I wonder to myself why they even bother to keep score. If they're just out "for the fun of it" then why keep track? If you're bothering to keep score, at least learn what the "unplayable ball" rule is (or what counts for free drops, like stone yardage markers). Give yourself the penalty stroke where applicable and drop away from the "club damaging" trouble. That's the line for me. If you're keeping score, you should be counting everything and playing by the rules. If you're out having fun (or, as I sometimes do, playing three balls and just practicing shots), don't keep score. Imagine how hollow the first time you break 100 or 90 or 80 will feel if you know that you cheated. And if you truly don't care, again, you shouldn't know that you broke 100 because you wouldn't be keeping score.

[aquacooled]

I just got back from playing, and my playing partner must have "better his lie" about 75% of his shots.. On the first tee I have the honor then (well call him ed) ed, his tee shot wasnt that bad, matter of fact it was better then mine (mine was on an up hill slope). He was away I waited about 3 yards behind him, he takes his fairway wood and pushs the ball onto higher grass.. I was wait a min here, "what are you doing" I ask??!! He looks at me like Im the biggest idot in the world, and saids "what?? I didnt do anything!!!" I let it go, second hole again Im first. I think to myself "let this one fly" big mistake I rush it and end up in the tall grass. His turn he ends up right in between the med and high ruff, again he is away, I wait behind him again. Guess what??!! he does it again, he taps the the ball onto the med cut ruff.. I almost jumped out of my shirt!!! Im like man what the hell are you doing!!!!??? again he looks at me and saids what I cant help if when I step on the grass the ball falls out of the ruff!!! This goes on for the rest of the round.. at the end I refused to sign his score card. You should have seen his face I thought he was going to burst.. We went at it for almost a half an hour.. in the end I just left told him this was pointless anyone who plays by there own rules shouldnt be playing golf or atleast not in a tournament.

[ragontona]

This whole conversation is actually pointing down the road to the authenticity of the average players' handicaps.

Handicaps can ultimately be broken down into three categories:

1. Genuine handicaps achieved by playing by the rules.
2. Sandbaggers, who maintain artificially high handicaps for the purposes of tournament play.
3. Vanity handicappers, who turn in fraudulently low scorecards in order to tell their friends that they're a lower handicap than they really are.

More power to the players in the first category, but of the other two categories, I guess I understand the vanity handicapper the least. (I'm not condoning sandbagging -- to me, it's an unforgiveable cheat -- but at least there are mechanisms in place at the USGA and Club level to combat it.)

But the vanity handicapper is really only hurting himself. He's not gaining the necessary skills to acheive the handicap index he claims to have, he absolutely screws himself come tournament time, and ultimately, nobody else cares what his handicap is. It's a peculiar combination of arrogance and insecurity that leads people down this path -- a strange obsession with having others believe you're better than you really are in order to feel better about yourself.

And the thing is, real golfers can tell when you're lying about your handicap. I only need to watch someone for one hole to get a feel for whether or not their handicaps are valid. The way a player conducts himself, the way he sets up, the shots he plays -- it's usually obvious to me when a player is really a player.

A famous (or infamous) example of Vanity vs Sandbag with well-known personalities: Donald Trump plays to a single digit handicap, and anyone who's ever watched him play will tell you that he absolutely is not. Notorious for cheating when he thinks nobody's watching (even caught on camera doing it once, utilizing his foot wedge). Bill Gates, however, has maintained a 23.9 handicap for years. He does not turn in cards where he scores in the 80s. Stories have made their rounds that he has netted a 57 in tournament play....

[Konrad]

I don't really think that "improving" your lie in the fairway actually helping your shot at all. Unless you play on really long-cut fairways... I think it just helps your mental feeling about the shot. I don't belive it actually helps you at all.

But to the main point, it's easy on an internet board to say "I play by the rules" but the truth is that nobody, not even pros always play by the rules. The fact is that only the ones with a lot of cameras on them get caught. I'm not saying that they do it on purpose, but accidents do happen. When we're playing high school matches in the spring they allow lift, clean, and place for 90% of the matches we play. So, I do sometimes find myself doing that during times when the fairways are soft. But now? No, I don't even think about improving them now. Like I said, I don't think it even helps.

[iacas]

I don't really think that "improving" your lie in the fairway actually helping your shot at all. Unless you play on really long-cut fairways... I think it just helps your mental feeling about the shot. I don't belive it actually helps you at all.

I don't buy it. Fairway is fairway. If you've improved your lie enough to "help your mental feeling" then you've improved your lie. And again, touching the ball in that case is against the rules anyway, so I could argue it would do the opposite of "helping" my mental feelings.

But to the main point, it's easy on an internet board to say "I play by the rules" but the truth is that nobody, not even pros always play by the rules.

Aside from the times when I'm playing a practice round (i.e. not posting a score, playing two to four balls, etc.), I do. Dave does. My pal Don (bam-bam here on the forum) does. If you want to be literal, yeah, you're right: pros playing practice rounds are breaking the rules just as I am in my practice sessions on the course.

But in every round I'm scoring - match, alone, or just for handicap purposes (always decided before I even get to the course let alone tee off) - I follow the rules.

Like I said, I don't think it even helps.

I don't think those that are saying they improve their lies are doing so in the fairway...

[Konrad]

I don't buy it. Fairway is fairway. If you've improved your lie enough to "help your mental feeling" then you've improved your lie. And again, touching the ball in that case is against the rules anyway, so I could argue it would do the opposite of "helping" my mental feelings.

What I mean is that there is not even a point in improving your lie. Once you get the fact that it doesn't help, you'll stop doing it.

If you want to be literal, yeah, you're right: pros playing practice rounds are breaking the rules just as I am in my practice sessions on the course.

No, that's not what I mean. I mean Michelle Wie hitting moss in a bunker, and accidentally dropping closer to the hole. I mean Monty not marking his ball correctly.

I can assure you that they aren't doing it on purpose. They know that there are about a thousand people who know the rulebook by heart who are following/watching them.

[iacas]

What I mean is that there is not even a point in improving your lie. Once you get the fact that it doesn't help, you'll stop doing it.

In the fairway, yes, there's no point. Outside the fairway, there's tremendous value in improving your lie. That's why it's against the rules.

No, that's not what I mean. I mean Michelle Wie hitting moss in a bunker, and accidentally dropping closer to the hole. I mean Monty not marking his ball correctly.

Those are rare and they're unintentional, as you said. That's not the same class of things as intentionally doing something to break the rules.

[xd3vilx]

I play it as it lie, i love if my ball go under a tree or fly to near bushes. Can try out all those different shot that you can't do in a clean lie.

[rembrandt]

Boy did I start something.......anyway, when you think of it, the only person it hurts is the one improving their lie. Say you become a 10 handicap and you play in a tournament that makes you play the ball as it lies, then you shoot 90. Who has it hurt? You've hurt no one but yourself, period. I play mostly for fun and I don't have any effect on anyones score but my own. After hip replacement, I'm just thanking the Lord that I'm able to swing a club again and get back on the course with my son and play a round. He put his arm around me the other day and said "Dad, I never did appreciate all those great rounds of golf we had until now and it's great to be back out here playing golf with you". Now that made my day and the score or how I played didn't really matter. Everybody be thankful that you can play golf and play with a son or a friend. Life is too short to get upset over the little things.

[prutkows]

i was going to make a new thread for this, but this one seems active enough.

if on a par3 i choose not to use a tee and just hit my tee shot off the ground do i need to place the ball with my hand? or can i drop the ball on the ground and move it to a spot i wish to hit it from with my club?

[iacas]

i was going to make a new thread for this, but this one seems active enough.

You can put the ball down however you want, basically. Laura Davies kicks up some turf and hits her driver off of it most of the time - she doesn't even use a tee with her driver.

Though, as many famous people have said, "if the rules let you put the ball on a tee, do it." I've never understood those who hit the ball off the ground on par 3s. Just tee it up really low. But let's get back to topic now...

[gripitandripit]

There's one situation that comes up alot with me and my usual playing partners. Most public courses don't chalk off ground-under-repair areas. If one of us hits into an area that would normally be marked as g.u.r. the others determine whether to grant a drop or not.

[Baynative]

When some friends and I began playing regularly a few years back we said no more cheating at all! Most of us thought we were usually shooting around 90. Once we stoped playing the ball up our scores soared. But, what happened to two of us was that we got better in a few weeks because playing the ball down changed how we played the game - thought about our shots and the rules in advance.

Sometimes I'd hit a nice drive and walk up the fairway calculating what I thought was going to be a 165yd shot to the green only to find that it was in a divot or maybe in a sunken lie and now, instead of rolling it I had to learn to play the proper shot or maybe lay up to perfect wedge yardage and try to get up and down.

Before long I learned to "budget" my shots and always keep bogey on the table- meaning I had to reach every green in no more than one stroke over regulation and get two putt. That strategy got me shooting mid 80's in a hurry and consistently, which is what it takes to really maintain a 13 index on my course.

I have some hard to reach par 4s where I actually hit 4 iron off the tee to shoot for position and 'make myself behave'. My up and down percentage has become about 40% from 85 yards (PW) and 50% or better from 30yds (LW) so laying up to those yardages are my match play shots. By playing that strategy and sticking to it, I have been giving some 5 and 6 handicaps fits in match play where I have strokes on holes that demand the best of them.

[Konrad]

In the fairway, yes, there's no point. Outside the fairway, there's tremendous value in improving your lie. That's why it's against the rules.

Agreed. There's a moral to the story. Don't miss the fairway :)

Those are rare and they're unintentional, as you said. That's not the same class of things as intentionally doing something to break the rules.

They're not as rare as you think. You can bet money it happens to a B-level pros all the time and they're just not noticed or not well known at all.