Mickelson, Harrington, Daly using PING wedges for grooves. Unfair advantage?

[zeg]

Wrong here. The PGA Tour could make it a condition of the competition that the player must use clubs that conform to the 2010 groove rule and the players would be compelled to abide by it if they wanted to play. The Tour just doesn't have the balls to stand up and do it. The legal aspect only applies to generally allowing the use of the old Ping wedges, not to specific competitions.

Ok, like I said I don't know the details of the settlement and who exactly was involved. If Ping were still interested in pushing for the continued grandfathering of their old designs (unlikely now, but if) and the Tour did start nulling the USGA settlement at every competition I imagine they would have some risk of a lawsuit on the same grounds as the original. Of course, now 20 years later there's probably no actual standing for it to succeed... It might have been problematic soon after the settlement, though.

[iacas]

The PGA Tour could make it a condition of the competition that the player must use clubs that conform to the 2010 groove rule

They have enacted that Condition of Competition (CoC). The CoC specifically says the PING wedges conform (via a previous ruling that's also permitted Tour pros to use Ping Eye 2 clubs as well). The PGA Tour cannot adopt

pieces of the condition as they see fit - they adopt the entire condition or they don't adopt it at all. They'd be disallowing "conforming" clubs, thus putting them outside of the Rules of Golf. It has nothing to do with the Tour's "balls" or lack thereof. They've enacted the CoC. That's it.

Source: Full Condition of Competition 4-1/1 Condition Requiring Clubs Conforming with Groove from Punch Mark Specifications Effective Jan. 1, 2010 A Committee that wishes to limit players to clubs manufactured with grooves and/or punch marks that conform to all aspects of the Rules of Golf, including those that are effective from Jan. 1, 2010, may adopt the condition of competition detailed below. Between Jan. 1, 2010 and Jan. 1, 2014, it is recommended that this condition of competition be adopted only for competitions involving the highest level of expert player. After Jan. 1, 2014, this condition of competition may be adopted more widely (e.g., at the highest level of amateur golf), but it is recommended only for competitions involving expert players. "The player’s clubs must conform to the groove and punch mark specifications in the Rules of Golf that are effective from Jan.1, 2010. *PENALTY FOR CARRYING, BUT NOT MAKING STROKE WITH, CLUB OR CLUBS IN BREACH OF CONDITION: Match play - At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole for each hole at which a breach occurred; maximum deduction per round - Two holes. Stroke play - Two strokes for each hole at which any breach occurred; maximum penalty per round - Four strokes. Match or stroke play - In the event of a breach between the play of two holes, the penalty applies to the next hole. Bogey and par competitions - See Note 1 to Rule 32-1a. Stableford competitions - See Note 1 to Rule 32-1b. *Any club or clubs carried in breach of this condition must be declared out of play by the player to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play immediately upon discovery that a breach has occurred. If the player fails to do so, he is disqualified. PENALTY FOR MAKING STROKE WITH CLUB IN BREACH OF CONDITION: Disqualification. Exception: Clubs manufactured before March 31, 1990 that meet the criteria of USGA Decision USGA/4-1/100, such as the Ping Eye 2 irons, will be permitted for play when the above Condition Requiring Clubs Conforming with Groove and Punch Mark Specifications Effective Jan. 1, 2010 is in effect.”

[TakeDeadAim]

Ask not whether JD is doing something wrong... (clearly not, as he is well within the rules...), but whether the manufacturers are doing something wrong...

Any CTO of any company would be embarrased if all the technology bluffs the company has been selling as breakthroughs throughout the years proved pointless, as 30 year-old equipment was demanded by top professionals and clients...

[steve8820]

I'd say it is probably an advanatage, but will be offset by the fact he is probably playing drunk......... :)

[iacas]

Frank Hannigan, former USGA Executive Director, wrote an email to a few people in the biz and this is part of it:

Source: Frank Hannigan
For the USGA, the great groove war of the 1980s was never, but never, about performance.

It was on the hyper-technical point that Karsten Solheim had altered his grooves so that there wasn't enough space between grooves to satisfy the Rules of Golf.

When the USGA ruled in 1987 that the Ping Eye 2 clubs were outside the rules it did so because
the rules had been violated. Solheim had adjusted his clubs in a manner contrary to a hallowed requirement that the space between adjacent grooves be at least three times the width of the grooves. Having perceived that the clubs did not meet its rules, the USGA had no choice but to say so, no matter how minute the violation. It's like the Uniform Code of Military Justice which says "Penetration however slight......"

The lawsuit that ensued resulted in a settlement whereby all the Ping clubs made prior to April 1, 1990 were grandfathered forever. But all clubs turned out after that date did conform to the rules because Solheim enlarged the space between grooves, something he said he would never do. He did.

The key part (to me) was the bit about performance and how slight the actual difference was. But it was over the line, so it forced the USGA to react.

[Three Putt]

It's the Indian not the arrow. Daly is probably busy thinking how he's got a superior wedge with more bite...than actually practicing. He missed the cut and will miss many more, yes ...he might make a splash or two this year in a tournament but it wont be because of his 20 year old wedge...it will be because of his talent and course management, he's still a long hitter that if he is hitting shots he can be very good, he will have a chance or two this year at making some headlines (in a good way) i think

[dbuck]

Certainly there are situations where there is controversy between the "spirit" vs the "letter of the law" in interpretation, but to me this is not one of those.

The rule/coc exception specifically says as such you can use these clubs. So anyone can use them, including Daly, and not be in violation.

Many have questioned the efficacy of the 20+ year old clubs anyway compared to brand new ones.

Question: Could the old clubs be restored within the rules as long as they were just restored to the original new condition?

[drumon]

Certainly there are situations where there is controversy between the "spirit" vs the "letter of the law" in interpretation, but to me this is not one of those.

Yes,... as an aside don't you find that professional sport rarely adheres to the

spirit of the laws of its game, but some players in some sports will do what they can to deliberately bend the Letter-of-the-Law. That's where professionalism has brought us unfortunately, whereas the Spirit of the game and its laws, tends to become more and more an amateur field. Take golf etiquette, it is not OK for professional golfers to go about spitting, swearing before a crowd of adults with children in tow, or throwing clubs about..... but it happens. Anyway this is not that type of case either, John Daly is following the rules.

[clubchamp]

None of this matters he didn't break any rules. Plus spirit of competition or whatever doesn't pay the bills. I would take any top 100 player in the world meeting the new groove rule against JD using whatever clubs he wanted. If you start seeing a lot of big name players switching to 80's ping wedges then you have a problem.

[zeg]

Yes,... as an aside don't you find that professional sport rarely adheres to the

I do think it's a shame that pro sports take the spirit out. As a longtime fan (and former really bad player) of Ultimate, one of my favorite features was the importance of self-refereeing and taking the Spirit of the Game as serious business. Sadly, even among us damn dirty hippies it was pretty well recognized that if it ever reached more serious levels that it'd have to go to external refereeing. But I guess it's part of life, and I can't really blame someone who's playing for a living who takes advantage of the rules. After all, different subcultures of a sport have different unwritten rules, so it's hard to mesh it all together.

As for the spitting, cursing, etc, I don't think you can really pretend that the amateurs are any better about this than the pros on average. They're just not on TV. And I bet they don't pay as many fines for it as the pros do... However, even with an appreciation for unwritten rules, I don't see the issue of equipment as having a serious "spirit of the rules" component. It's too technical. The spirit of golf is "play it as it lies." If you skirt that rule on a technicality, that's NOT OK (as I'd tell my 3-year-old). Grooves? Sorry, in my opinion those rules are arbitrary and to me are mere regulations. They're rules with a lower-case r. Sure they have a general intent behind them, but everyone's on equal footing, and it was the clearly-stated specific intent of the authors of the rules to exempt particular models of clubs from the rule. What's the problem?

[dbuck]

I heard on one of the TV commentaries(GC) that Phil has pulled a couple of old Pings out of the garage and had one bent to 64* and is experimenting with them. The commentary also mentioned that he was feeling out some other players before actually putting them into tournament play.

By the way, the same segment also mentioned he is experimenting with a 6 degree driver.

[Gioguy21]

Yawn, really...who cares? a) Ping and the USGA/PGA/whoever should work something out to right this obvious problem so that everyone is abiding by the same rules, regardless of the clubhead brand and any incidents/provisions/precedents beforehand should be considered null; b) John Daly was in his hay day, has since been playin in his beer-year and in my opinion the tv show, the over the top clothes and parsona that he's putting out there is almost embarassing because he no longer has the game or professional strength to be so outlandish; c) whether it's a u, v, z, y, f or g groove i don't really care as long as there's a given set of rules that are the same throughout, no loops nor bubbles for people to weasel their way into (trying) to shave an extra 2 strokes per round off.

/off soapbox

[iacas]

a) Ping and the USGA/PGA/whoever should work something out to right this obvious problem so that everyone is abiding by the same rules

They are.

And nothing's stopping a guy from using a 20-year old wedge from some other manufacturer, so long as it conforms. And again, the old PINGs don't perform better than the current regulations. I'm convinced of that now. They might even be worse than a new conforming groove. So put your soapboxes away, people. I don't get it. There's nothing wrong here.

[wolverine_man]

I don't care what he uses, as long as he stops wearing those damn, crazy pants! Reminds me of those god awful zubaz pants I saw back in the early 90s.

[Tiger Spuds]

I don't care what he uses, as long as he stops wearing those damn, crazy pants! Reminds me of those god awful zubaz pants I saw back in the early 90s.

I thought those pants would be the worst I'd ever see ; Until I saw Alice Cooper's at Bob Hope last night.They were shocking.They had a kind of vomit looking pattern on them, lovely.

After watching Daly last week, it's obvious those wedges are of no advantage to him, his game is a mess in general. I just wonder how those wedges would perform compared to the new one in the hands of say Phil Mickelson or Padraig Harrington.It'd be interesting to see if there'd be any difference at all.

[aluther_wareagle]

JD is the man

[wolverine_man]

JD is the man

I've always preferred JW, as in Johnnie Walker. I hope you meant the whiskey. JD the golfer has always been a mess.

[MrKadash]

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/blog/go...rn=golf,216497

Should the governing bodies change the rules so the "grandfathering" of clubs is eliminated? I don't know. However, the Phil bashing is unwarranted in my view if he is 1) not breaking the rules as defined, and 2) other pro's are just as able to take advantage of said rules.

Edit: I didn't see Iacas' thread earlier on Phil's wedge change, so delete or merge if applicable. I found it interesting how he's getting bashed.