Christians

[sean_miller]

Bible passages used as proof that the Bible is the literal word of God? That's just plain weak - as far as evidence goes. Imagine submitting a research paper to a scientific journal, which was filled with citations of said paper as proofs. Paper shredder anyone?

[Shorty]

  jots said:

There is so much scripture that proves the authenticity of the Bible as the Word of God that it astoundes me how any sane person could reject it. (snip). Their amazing accuracy leaves us with but one conclussion, they were authored by God.

This almost defies belief! Imagine, in 2010, someone with this concept of reality. It's actually quite frightening.

The logic is that if the bible says so it must be true because the bible says it is. How about a SINGLE example that holds water.

[senorchipotle]

  jots said:

Why are you limiting it to "mostly white, western believers"?

see, the whole problem with me ''accepting christs word'' is that he's never actually told me anything. true, there are words attributed to a character called jesus christ in a book called the bible, but outside of this book there's no proof of his existence. given all the miracles and what not he did, you'd think somebody would have taken notice and got a scroll and feather to jot it down. after all, it's not every day people regain their sight, or wake up from the grave. and it's not just jesus, there's no proof of virtually anything in the bible. no moses, no david, no solomon, no jewish slaves in egypt. nothing. which is funny, because the egyptians actually wrote stuff down, and built things, like big f'n pyramids. so did the japanese, and the persians, and the mongols. given that, there really is no good reason for me to believe anything the bible says. honestly, i think a few jews made the journey down the river about 4,000 years and found an exquisite society that put them to shame. so when they got back home, they decided to make up a whole bunch of crap that sounded good, then added some realistic things for good measure. to put it plain and simply, it's mythology.

how can a person ''deny christ'' if christ never existed? you say ''(we) are mad at god,'' or ''(we) don't want to follow his word,'' but it's really all leprechauns and pots of gold with christianity. i've never seen nor heard from a leprechaun, and i've never seen nor heard from jesus god. but let's say for the sake of argument that jesus god exists, and we are denying him. we know full well that we would be subject to an eternity of pain and torture. do you really think that if we did believe in, but denied your jesus god, that anybody would take that risk? of course not. and how can you pretend your jesus god is ''just'' if he sends people to hell, anyways? would you torture a five year old kid for the rest of his life every moment of the day until he grows old and dies because he told a lie? this scenario doesn't even come within a million miles of reaching the ridiculousness of torturing people for eternity because they don't ''accept'' jesus god. how any adult thinking person can find this line of reasoning anything short of nauseating truly baffles my mind, let alone justify to themselves that these fellow earth dwellers actually ''deserved'' their fate. it would be funny if it weren't so sad.

[senorchipotle]

  jots said:

There are plenty of things written in the Word of God and later discovered scientifically that proves undoubtedly that God is the author. Christian scientist such as Galileo understood this, so did Kepler, Descartes, von Leibnitz, Newton, Pascal, and more.

see, the problem with using scientists who died before modern biological, post darwinian observation is that they couldn't break things down anatomically, nor see how all life fits together in a tree. they had physics, astronomy, and mathematics, but without biology they were left without a huge piece of the puzzle. pretty sure if they were able to walk into a modern day library and read all about scientific progress, those beliefs would quickly change.

  None said:

2 Timothy 3:16a "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." Therefore I believe God wrote every single word of it.

well of course the bible would say that. why would somebody write a work of fiction they want someone to believe then refute themselves in the same text? makes no sense.

  None said:

There is so much scripture that proves the authenticity of the Bible as the Word of God that it astoundes me how any sane person could reject it. You won't find one single mistake in God's word. What you will find is science, hydrology, astronomy, geology, meteorology, and physiology. You will find all kinds of scriptrue revealling these, hundreds even thousands of years before science ever came along. I could add biology, archaeology, anthropology, and other sciences, and still find that every time the Bible touches on these things it is absolutely accurate.

pretty sure the egyptians were building pyramids, making embalming fluid, cultivating bees for honey, breeding cats as house pets, making dams for rice patties, and determining that the earth was round when moses' ancestors were dragging knuckles in a cave somewhere. guess they weren't using science for any of that stuff, huh? the bible also says the world is flat, it's not.

  None said:

My favorite proof of Scripture is prophecy. Prophecies that have come to pass years after they were uttered. Their amazing accuracy leaves us with but one conclussion, they were authored by God.

yeah, funny how when you write a book in past tense how easy it is to ''fulfill'' the prophecies that your character was supposed to achieve. also, see ''self fulfilling prophecies.''

[Big_M]

When I saw this thread I was scared to read it... these discussions usually turn ugly. Instead of answering I will ask a few questions...

1) Why would someone who believes in evolution mock Christianity with those disciple fish with feet?

2) Why do so many Christians insist on fighting amongst themselves over how communion is given or how to worship?

3) Why do some atheists feel so strongly AGAINST religion.

4) Why are we talking religion on a golf board. Maybe a discussion of how religion impacts or doesn't impact our golf games would be more appopriate.

[senorchipotle]

  Big_M said:

When I saw this thread I was scared to read it... these discussions usually turn ugly. Instead of answering I will ask a few questions...

it's called an icthus. some ancient fishes developed legs which they used to navigate dry ground. so it's a play on the many references to fish in the bible. aside from that, it's rather funny.

  None said:

2) Why do so many Christians insist on fighting amongst themselves over how communion is given or how to worship?

probably the greatest argument against any divine authenticity of the bible. you weren't trying to do that, were you?

  None said:

3) Why do some atheists feel so strongly AGAINST religion.

i don't care what people believe. but for some reason people in power tend to want their unfounded beliefs embedded into law, and like minded voters tend to vote those people into office. your life is not affected in any way by my non-belief, but my life is affected almost daily by christian beliefs.

  None said:

4) Why are we talking religion on a golf board. Maybe a discussion of how religion impacts or doesn't impact our golf games would be more appopriate.

because apparently some people care whether or not their golf partner thinks that there's a man floating in the sky watching them play golf. i don't.

[nike_golf]

  senorchipotle said:

pretty sure the egyptians were building pyramids, making embalming fluid, cultivating bees for honey, breeding cats as house pets, making dams for rice patties, and determining that the earth was round when moses' ancestors were dragging knuckles in a cave somewhere. guess they weren't using science for any of that stuff, huh? the bible also says the world is flat, it's not.

How do you know what you know about the Egyptians? Why is that true and believable to you, but yet the Bible is a farce and a book of fiction?

I guess the Bible should have been scrolled into walls to have been more believable, right?

[senorchipotle]

  nike_golf said:

How do you know what you know about the Egyptians? Why is that true and believable to you, but yet the Bible is a farce and a book of fiction?

let's see, ah. evidence. pyramids, sarcophogi, jars of honey and cats and dogs and building schematics found in them. drawings on pyramid walls of the embalming process and of domesticated animals. multiple contemporary writings of the same thing, also known as corroborating evidence. there's myriad documentation of egyptian pharoahs and how they lived and ran their societies.

there really is nothing that corroborates with the OT or jesus. nothing at all. that's why it's not believable to me. added to the fact that the stories of noah, jonah, goliath, etc. are obviously made up, there really is no good reason to take the bible seriously.

[Shanks A Million]

  jots said:

2 Timothy 3:16a "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." Therefore I believe God wrote every single word of it.

So, let me get this straight... Some guys wrote a book, and said God actually wrote it... And you believe them? And the proof comes from their book?

I have this bridge I'd like to sell you...

[nike_golf]

  Shanks A Million said:

So, let me get this straight... Some guys wrote a book, and said God actually wrote it... And you believe them? And the proof comes from their book?

Kinda like how the scientists tell us the earth is billions of years old? And you believe them? Or the universe just happened w/ some kind of big bang? And you believe them?

I have this car I'd like to sell you....

[Shanks A Million]

  nike_golf said:

Kinda like how the scientists tell us the earth is billions of years old? And you believe them? Or the universe just happened w/ some kind of big bang? And you believe them?

Your right! Why didn't I realize it before! All they offer is massive amounts of evidence, precise carbon dating, and massive scientific consensus... What's that when you have some guys who lived 400 years after Jesus died who wrote a book? The thing is, the Big Bang theory is very likely not real. It's based on the assumption that we can perceive all of the universe, but the idea that the Earth is only a few thousand years old is laughable in its entirety.

My only point, is that the Bible is not a literal text. This totally contradicts reality. Look, the Bible's writers tried to instill people with a sense of how large the universe was, and how easily god could shape it. They were trying to say that in God's works, a creation the size of the whole universe only took what we would call a week's work. So, they gave a HUGE number, like several thousand years, and a very short time, like 7 days, in which the 7th day was rest. We could also write this as a trillion years and the blink of an eye. I don't disagree that God created the universe, not for a second, but to thrust all of science aside, and to shut your eyes and cover your ears, eyes and ears that god gave you , that's absolutely asinine. God gave me eyes, he gave me logic, he gave me the tools to study and determine these things. Not one discovery science has ever made even remotely disproves that god exists, but they do disprove that the Bible is literal . Remember that this is a book that was written long before the birth of Jesus, and finished long after his death. It has also been stripped, translated, and recopied thousands of times. As a child, we all played the game "telephone," in which a message was whispered into a child's ear, and he passed it down the line, right? Remember how much different the message was when it got to the end? What may have started as "God created the earth untold eons ago" could have become "God created the earth 4,000 years ago." Who knows what the original texts even said? And if someone today came to you and said god inspired him to write a new Bible verse, that totally contradicted reality, would you believe it? Or would that person be a homeless crazy that wore a tinfoil hat? Why do you think just because these same people did this 1600 years ago that it was any different?

[Phil McGleno]

  nike_golf said:

Kinda like how the scientists tell us the earth is billions of years old? And you believe them? Or the universe just happened w/ some kind of big bang? And you believe them?

Ha! The early leader for "most ignorant thing I've read this week." But hey, it's only Tuesday...

Scientists just didn't write a book, dude. They have a whole bunch of evidence, fact, proof, etc. What proof do you have of anything in the Bible besides your beliefs which, I'm sorry to say, wouldn't hold up in a court of intellect. Or a kangaroo court.

[Brugz7]

Believing in Jesus Christ is a decision. It is a lifestyle choice. It is FREE WILL.

Jesus said that we were going to be persecuted for following Him, and I believe that.

As far as science goes, I'll trust my Lord before I trust anything that a human thinks. I don't disagree with the fact that science is crucial to life, but science is from God.

The point is, people who don't know God just don't understand. I have had so many things happen in my life in the last year and I know they have all been from God. I was at a point in my life where I needed direction.. I asked God to reveal something to me and I opened up my Bible and read, "The Lord Says, I will guide you along the best pathway for your life, I will advise you and watch over you." -- Psalm 32:8. I choose to believe that those words were to me from God, while many of you will choose to believe it was just a coincidence. My family is completely different since my sister and I accepted Jesus.

It just amazes me how people think I'm an idiot or basically stupid for believing that "there is a man floating in the sky." I don't understand how you can be so rude. I'm not making fun of you for not believing, I'm trying to do my job as a Christian and be a witness to others.. its your choice whether or not to believe.

[zeg]

  Big_M said:

1) Why would someone who believes in evolution mock Christianity with those disciple fish with feet?

It's not mocking Christianity, at most it's mocking the little fish that is used like a bumper sticker on a car. I never had a foot-fish, but I used to have a little shark with "Linux" written in it. Borrowing popular symbols, modifying them, and using them for new purposes is very common---for example, the litlte circular "country" symbols, etc. If the fish had been singled out I'd see this as mocking, as it is, it's just run-of-the-mill borrowing.

  Big_M said:

2) Why do so many Christians insist on fighting amongst themselves over how communion is given or how to worship?

Good question. It seems to be human nature. I think it'd be a better world if everyone could spend a little less time worrying about what the other guy was believing and more time making sure he had enough food and a warm place to sleep at night.

  Big_M said:

3) Why do some atheists feel so strongly AGAINST religion.

Someone above said it well: I don't care about religion per se, but I am very upset when religion is imposed on me. So, you might say I'm "against" religion because I would fight tooth and nail to keep it out of public schools. However, that's not because I'm opposed to you having your religion, it's because it's inappropriate to impose it on everyone using public money.

  Big_M said:

4) Why are we talking religion on a golf board. Maybe a discussion of how religion impacts or doesn't impact our golf games would be more appopriate.

Well, this is the off-topic forum, good to have a place to vent.

  Brugz7 said:

It just amazes me how people think I'm an idiot or basically stupid for believing that "there is a man floating in the sky." I don't understand how you can be so rude. I'm not making fun of you for not believing, I'm trying to do my job as a Christian and be a witness to others.. its your choice whether or not to believe.

I don't think I've seen much in the way of calling people idiots for believing in God. The stronger words have been for believing Biblical facts over what we learn from direct observation or extrapolation from observations. All-in-all, though, I think it's stayed relatively civil for this kind of hot-button discussion.

[Brugz7]

That is true. The majority of statements calling Christians idiots and basically stupid have been about how we believe what the Bible says over what science tells us. I believe that the Bible was written by God through man, and I believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God. To me, it is more than just a book.

I can understand the point you make about not wanting religion involved with public schools. The thing is, our country was founded on God..

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner..._Christia.html

I grew up Lutheran and I no longer agree with organized religion. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, and I have a personal relationship with Him. Being a Christian does not mean going to church on Sundays, reading your Bible whenever you feel like it, and praying constantly for different things or for help. Being a Christian means living your life for the same cause Jesus did. Being a Christian means loving God above all else and making Him your number one priority.

[jots]

  None said:

2 Timothy 3:16a "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." Therefore I believe God wrote every single word of it. There is so much scripture that proves the authenticity of the Bible as the Word of God that it astoundes me how any sane person could reject it. You won't find one single mistake in God's word. What you will find is science, hydrology, astronomy, geology, meteorology, and physiology. You will find all kinds of scriptrue revealling these, hundreds even thousands of years before science ever came along. I could add biology, archaeology, anthropology, and other sciences, and still find that every time the Bible touches on these things it is absolutely accurate. My favorite proof of Scripture is prophecy. Prophecies that have come to pass years after they were uttered. Their amazing accuracy leaves us with but one conclussion, they were authored by God.

Funny how many of you put me into the catagory of a lunatic because I supposedly took the one scripture above as proof that God wrote the entire Bible. Did you just stop reading right there and not even notice the two supporting paragraphs of evidence within the Bible I provided to document my belief?

Personaly, I didn't need such proof when I came to Christ, I accepted Him by faith. However, as I have grown in understanding of the Bible, the utterly astounding evidence throughout Scripture with its pinpoint accuracy, in all the areas mentioned above in quote, prooves to me that God has to be the author as stated. I didn't need that proof but it just strengthens my faith even more. So many of you here are convinced beyond a shadow of doubt, of belief in the big bang theory, evolution, etc. because of so-called scientific proofs. You have absolute solid facts therefore it has to be true. Yet you have absolute, solid, verifiable, documented proofs and facts of the Bibles authenticity yet you dismiss it as pure garbage. Talk about your hypocrites! In the final analysis, both of us could be wrong but only one of us could be right. If I am wrong, I have lost nothing. But I didn't accept Christ as a fire insurance policy. I came to Him for life. What does a dead man need? Life. We all came into this world dead spiritually, without the Spirit of God living in us, because of the consequences of one man, Adam. Jesus said, "I have come that you may have life." And the kind of life that He gave me is eternal because of the eternal consequences of the cross, where He dealt with sin (which is what caused death) once and for all. In Gods eyes there is only one sin attributal to man, the sin of un-belief. That's the only unforgivable sin, and the only sin that can truely be repented of. That's why Jesus said "the worlds sin is unbelief in me." In my understanding of Scripture, because of the cross, all sins, of every person on Earth, have been taken away, never to be seen again. That doesn't mean though that every person is saved. Getting our sins forgiven doesn't provide salvation, it provides forgiveness. So with the sin issue dealt with once and for all He can offer us life. And this life is found in His resurrected life. As the Apostle Paul said "without the ressurrection, we are still dead in our sins and to be pitied of all people." If Jesus never arose to life, then He had no life to offer. So that's what I believe Christianity to be. I believe that salvation is found only in Christ and Christ alone and that at the moment of my salvation I stepped out of Adam into Heaven and He stepped out of Heaven into me, filling me with the Holy Spirit, which is the gaurantee of my eternal inheritance. So there you have it, that's what I will take with me to my grave. You take what you want to your grave and I will take what I want, and we will see what happens next. Sorry post was so long, you can start revving your engines now and get ready to run over me again.

[sean_miller]

  jots said:

. . . You have absolute solid facts therefore it has to be true . .

Yes, I think that's basically it.

  jots said:

. . . start revving your engines now and get ready to run over me again.

Don't pat yourself on the back too hard - it might start to affect your golf swing.

[Brugz7]

jots, that was an incredible post. Thank you for being an obedient servant of God and sharing that with us!