Instruction: Worse Before Better?

[iacas]

Three things spurred this one. First, a forum discussion at Manzella's forum. Before that, several conversations with Dave about the topic. And third, a few comments on someone's Sand Trap blog .

The topic: should you expect to get worse before you get better when taking lessons?

My contention: unless you're making several concurrent changes to your golf swing (see also: Tiger Woods x 2), the "you'll get worse before you get better" thing is bunk and a phrase which poor instructors have perpetuated for years. Any good instructor - outside of a few funny shots (thin, fat, shanks, etc.) during the lesson - should have you hitting the ball better when you're done than when you came in. They do this by working on one or two things. If you improve one or two things, you almost can't help but hit the ball better. It's the poor instructor - one who doesn't know what changing piece A will do to piece B or vice versa - who has his players doing worse and leaving them with "just practice a lot to really get it down, then you'll see improvement" as their final words.

It's a terrible thing to tell students, too, because it prevents people who believe it from taking lessons. "Why would I want to get worse?" What those people see as the alternative - teaching themselves and slowly getting better (likely mostly due to the repetition) - looks good when they're faced with the prospect, or so they believe, of getting worse before they get better.

My own opinions on this have shifted over the years, but I'm firmly in the camp of "that's bunk" now. Any student working during his playing season with a good instructor should be hitting the ball better at the end of the lesson than at the beginning. The only exception, again, comes when someone is working on several things at a time, which they should likely only do when it's winter and they're hitting balls in a golf dome or something, as it may speed up the process (for others, it won't, but that's another topic altogether).

[James_Black]

Very true.
If your not hitting the ball well when the pro is around how are you going to do it yourself?

the only time when the saying is true is when changing your grip.
Well it was for me anyway.

[allin]

Yes, I think part of this is pros just trying to get people to relax, at least I hope so. Unless you are trying to completely remake your swing there should be at least a small improvement, it may come and go for a bit because old habits or inconsistent application intervene. I do have an exception also, when I switched from playing left handed to right handed, sometimes pain is necessary.

[sean_miller]

Some students may get worse at first (or think they're getting worse) because either their expectations are too high or their attention span is too short.

The first thing my instructor did was ask where I wanted to go with my game. Did I want correct any specific flaws, or just tighten up what I already had. He didn't suggest rebuilding my foundation.

Before my first lesson, I expected to take a step back, mostly due to lack of fitness. During my second lesson, it felt like I had taken a step back. A few days later though, and I can't wait to take the next of many steps forward.

[Dave H]

I voted for expect to get better. Each time I've taken a lesson I've walked away a better golfer. Even to the point where if I could afford to have a weekly lesson throughout the season I would. I just can't afford to.

I think it's a bad way to look at things in general. I mean if you don't believe or expect to improve, how can you?

[thrasher]

Looks like I'm in the minority, considering I'm the only one who voted against. But here's the reason: It takes time to build muscle memory, and you simply won't have the necessary muscle memory built after 30-60 minutes with an instructor. I am currently working with a top 100 instructor, and this is exactly what he says as well.

Basically, the muscles that you're currently using in your golf swing are used to working in a certain way. When changes are made, not only are you activating/using different muscles , but the muscles that were already being used are now being asked to be used in a different way . There's no way that you can train new/existing muscle to work in a new/different way by hitting 50 balls in an hour. Thus, I expect to get worse before I get better.

[James_Black]

Looks like I'm in the minority, considering I'm the only one who voted against. But here's the reason: It takes time to build muscle memory, and you simply won't have the necessary muscle memory built after 30-60 minutes with an instructor. I am currently working with a top 100 instructor, and this is exactly what he says as well.

I think what Iacas is saying (I might be wrong) is that if the pro doesn't get you hitting good shots in the lesson then you won't be able to get better yourself.

Your instructor is getting you to hit good shots and then to build up muscle memory.

[WUTiger]

iacas said... ... Any student working during his playing season with a good instructor should be hitting the ball better at the end of the lesson than at the beginning. ...

If you are talking about before/after the actual lesson session, I agree. But, it may take you a couple more range sessions and some rounds of golf to integrate a new motion into your swing. You are unlearning your old ways while learning new ones.

It also depends on the nature of the swing change. If you're talking about something static, this may take hold quickly. When I changed irons last year, I started lining up to the right a little, causing misses to right. Pro pointed this out, and I made the alignment correction in one day. Complex motions are another matter, as in starting the downswing. Relearning how to drop the club into the slot took a lot of work. My old irons had stiff shafts, which I was fighting, and I was giving extra hand action at top to try for extra power. Serious over-the-top . After I went to regular shafts, it took me several weeks after the lesson to shake it off and get a good drop. The pro e-mails video summaries to my home computer after each lesson. You see the before and after swings with comments, and also the remedy drills. Play it before you go to range, or load it to your Ipod and take it with you. This helps you model proper behavior during the practice sessions.

[iacas]

It takes time to build muscle memory, and you simply won't have the necessary muscle memory built after 30-60 minutes with an instructor.

Muscle memory is overstated. If I swing a golf club one way and have for 20,000 swings, yet I'm thinking about swinging one part a different way, muscle memory isn't going to "win." Most often, people have 15 things wrong in their golf swing (let's say), but 12 of those things are a result of three actual faults. A guy swings over the top and has to get the club on the ball, so he spins out his hips, he uncocks his wrists, he flips at the ball, his right knee kicks out... (or some of those could cause the over-the-top bit)... the point is that if you fix something, a lot of other parts clear up. There's no "muscle memory" making the guy's right knee kick out and the hips to spin and his wrists to uncock and flip - he's doing that as compensation for spinning his shoulders out and throwing the club over the top. Again, just an example.

Get that guy to start the downswing without throwing the club over the plane and he'll do the other things to a lesser extent. It may take him a few swings to find the clubface again but his pictures will change, his ballstriking will change, and his shot shape will change. Give the guy BAD instruction - like telling him not to kick his knee out (again, in this case) - and he's GOING to get worse before he gets better (if he ever gets better). You're bound to feel awkward when you're making a change. Instructors will ask you to overdo something because they know it feels awkward, but the simple truth is almost nobody overdoes something... yet they do move closer towards "ideal." And who's going to hit a ball better - a guy who's 50% of the way towards ideal or one who's 55 or 60% there? It's gonna be the second guy every time. Humans are pretty athletic. Good instruction taps into that, and

I am currently working with a top 100 instructor, and this is exactly what he says as well.

Hank Haney's a top 100 instructor and I'd never take a lesson from him. Have you seen him on Haney Project? He didn't fix Barkley and he's well on the way towards not fixing Ray Romano. I could make a very good case for how HORRIBLE an instructor he is and that doing the show is the WORST move he could make. If he didn't have Tiger Woods, he'd be a laughingstock. The guy - if you go by the Haney Project - can't teach.

Perhaps you've never seen an instructor - a good one - work. I have. I've seen several, and recently too, and the changes they can effect in only a few swings are incredible. Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer have contests to see who can get their guy's pictures - and ballstriking - to improve in as few swings as possible. They'll play "name that tune" and say "I can do it in six swings" and "Nah, I can do it in five."... and they don't lose. Five swings... not exaggerating.

There's no way that you can train new/existing muscle to work in a new/different way by hitting 50 balls in an hour.

You're dramatically - way, way dramatically - overstating the importance or relevance of muscle memory. If I tell you to throw a baseball to me, then I ask you to throw the ball to me with your arm 15° lower and with more wrist action, you can do that on the next throw. Your "muscle memory" isn't going to prevent you from doing it. You'll throw the ball - maybe only 12° lower - but you'll do it. If you shoot a basketball with the ball too much in the palm of your hand and I tell you to shoot it with the ball more in your fingers and your whole hand more cupped instead of flat, you can still shoot a basketball (and improve, if that's the correct "fix" for your jump shot troubles, immediately).

Muscle memory's a crutch. Find a new instructor, thrasher.

[Shindig]

In the past four years, I've had a great many lessons from my instructor. After each one, I was hitting the ball better. Starting with the first one, after which I was hitting the ball, to the last one (earlier this week), after which I was just nailing my irons and hybrids.

I've hit bad shots during lessons. I hit two shanks during my last lesson, for that matter. But, after the half hour, I was hitting better shots (better than the shank, easily; also better than what I had before the lesson) and I was able to practice it effectively for the following week.

Of course, my golf season is pretty close to year round, and there's rarely a 4-day block where the weather won't permit me outside on any of those four days to hit balls, if my schedule were to somehow permit. So I'm never inclined to make more than a few small changes at once.

[westcyderydin]

it depends on how big of a change you are making. if you are totally changing everything it will take a while to see results. but if you are changing things so you master one thing at a time before learning another or are just making adjustments then you should get better in a few range balls or maybe a few buckets.

thats is how i would teach somebody, one thing at a time. when i watch the haney project i always think he tries to teach them too many things at once and it seems to make it hard for the student to learn, both for charles and ray. but he is pro swing coach and i am not.

[inthecup]

I think it has a lot to do with the person. Many people could never be a 1.6 no matter how many lessons they took nor how much they practiced. Being that you are perhaps you don't get what all the fuss is about.

I know during the lesson I usually get it to some degree. Then there is the hours of practice after to get it to become a habit that may or may not go well. Some people take the lesson, get the drills to form habits and skip them.

[Phil McGleno]

There's no way a guy should be hitting the ball worse after he's taken a lesson.

Yeah, I agree that if you have a winter and you're working on several things at once, but even then I prefer to work really hard on one thing at a time, and to get that position to awfully close to ideal before moving on to the next thing. I've seen studies both ways that say working on multiple things at a time can speed things up but also lead to worse (easier) regressions.

At any rate, absolutely no way should a guy be hitting the ball worse after a lesson. None. If I ever had a guy hitting the ball worse I don't think I'd charge him. Hasn't happened yet though, knock on the ol' noggin.

[amccarroll]

I voted better, I had a lesson yesterday, my instructor asked me what I wanted to work on and I told him I wasn't playing great off the tee and was hooking it a fair bit. He watched my swing a couple of times then made a minor change to my grip and then I hit 10 perfect shots in a row - even he seemed impressed by how good they were and he said lets put the driver away it can only get worse from here. It remains to be seen if they'll be that consistent on the course.

[Ash1974]

My dad (retired PGA teaching pro) always said that he used to get loads of people tell him the lesson was great and that they were hitting the ball better than ever, but then they go for a round without practicing the new things he had taught them and then when it did not go well they blame the Pro LOL.
They always came back for more lessons and once they listened to him and did not take new changes straight on the course they saw signs of improvement.

So it depends on whether you are gonna practice what you have been taught or go straight out and expect to play like Westwood.

For this reason I voted "Worse before better" as I think most people don’t have the time to practice new techniques enough before taking them on the course.

[Leftygolfer]

I better get better or I'm going somewhere different. Question, Erik, have you ever seen someone go to a one day school with dave at golf evolution or the one in AZ where you took the pictures who wasn't a better golfer when they left? I am planning hopefully next summer to attend one and I expect to be playing the best golf of my life right afterwards.

[iacas]

For this reason I voted "Worse before better" as I think most people don’t have the time to practice new techniques enough before taking them on the course.

You didn't seem to read the question. It didn't ask if you'd improve over the long haul if you practiced - it asked if, at the end of the lesson, you'd expect to be hitting the ball better than at the beginning of the lesson. Not two hours later on the course, but at the lesson.

Yes, you then have to really ingrain the new things in order to take it to the course, but that's not the point of this poll.

[Williamevanl]

I voted worse before better so I better explain why: When I started golf here's what I did:

1. I lined up well right of the target to sort of cheat the inside swingplane. *So my right foot was kicked way back*
2. I used a super strong grip and I shut the face down like you wouldn't believe at impact.
3. I swung well over the top which was slightly alleviated by the alignment compensation.

I had one pro tell me that I simply had to fix my grip because it was way to strong and he was right. Unfortunately that broke the whole swing because my other problems compensated for it. I played the next day and hit everything straight right and I mean straight right.

I had another player point out that my alignment was jacked so I after fixing that I spent months slicing and fading the crap out of the ball because then I had neutral grip without the aid of the artificial inside swingplane from my alignment.

And lastly, I obviously couldn't get away with swing over the top with a neutral grip and a properly aligned stance. etc... You can sort of see the pattern of changing one things causing major problems due to another.

The only way a Pro could have made the whole thing better would have been by fixing all three of those things to where they are all working together and that seems impossible. After sucking it up intermittently for at least a year I now play a slightly open stance with a very inside out swing and neutral grip that allows me to push draw every club. I'm now officially playing off a 8 handicap for mens league but man did I get worse before I got better.