Scrambling liars?

[TheGeekGolfer]

The only time where I don't think anyone has cheated was in the 2-man scramble tournament ...

I think he inadvertently stated the obvious... it was a

2-MAN SCRAMBLE , therefore it is very hard to cheat as you are paired up with another 2-man team to keep you honest. There is always cheating in 4-man scrambles...I played in one with the stupid string / mulligan / toss thing. We shot a legitimate 15 under (came in 5th) and I figured the winning score should be around 20 under (there were 2 teams at 20 under and another at 21), because each person could 'buy' 2-feet of string (why I hate these tournaments is that if you don't do it 'for charity', then you have no chance of winning, they basically force you into it). The 'winning team' ended up shooting 26 under par , claiming they made birdie on every hole, eagle on all par 4's and holeing out on 4 other holes for eagle (2 par fours and 2 par threes). We were right behind them and they did NOT get close enough to use their string to 'hole out' on those holes. I'm not sure if they cheated on purpose or were stupid enough to think that the 8-ft of string (2 ft per person) was to use on each hole. You were supposed to 'cut it off', equal to the length to get the ball in the hole . To top it off, they served a lousy bowl of stew as the 'meal' after the tournament. What's worse, is that no one even questions this stuff and keeps an eye on things. Yes...I know it's 'for charity' and stuff, but you are paying usually $100 - $150 (at least) and they can't even have someone knowledgeable of golf run the stupid thing. Yes...these things are for 'fun', but it's more fun when it's honest and you may have a legitimate chance to win.

[msd3075]

I think he inadvertently stated the obvious... it was a

Maybe I'm missing something, but IT'S FOR CHARITY SO WHO CARES?!?!?!

[ET-Taylor]

(why I hate these tournaments is that if you don't do it 'for charity', then you have no chance of winning, they basically force you into it).

Yeh that is so they get more money for the charity. why would you play a charity event if you don't to it for charity

[allin]

Part of the issue is because many scrambles require one high handicap, usually 18+ only one single digit and two in between players. If you use the low handicap drives on the longer par 4s and shorter par 5s then they usually don't have any tee shots on par 3s and short par 4s. I will say this when you have 4 attempts and the best putter has seen the first three putting with less pressure there are a lot of one putt greens. Quite a few chip ins also. But I have seen many tournaments where the winning team claimed eagle on every par 5 and birdies on almost every par 3. I get asked to play in these frequently because I am a 13 who chips like a 10 and putts like an 8, somebody else better be the guy off the tee on long par 4s and short par 5s. Yes I believe a lot of cheating goes on. Remember a lot of the participants are not most people would call avid golfers, and don't look at the rules the same way as most on this forum. My guess is that with team makeups like the ones I described the real winning scores are usually 60-64, with multiple low handicap players 56-60 would be possible. two eagles and 8 birdies is 60. I have played on two teams where we broke 60 and weren't even in the top 5. I don't believe it. For what its worth this is kind of cheating and sandbagging is what is killing member guests tournaments at many private clubs, the hard feelings can just destroy a club.

[whetstone]

You guys enter an event in which you can buy mulligans, string and throws, and expect a "fair" competition? PM me... I have this bridge I'd love to sell you!

[plugged]

Maybe I'm missing something, but IT'S FOR CHARITY SO WHO CARES?!?!?!

Because (1) someone who cheats in a charity tournament will cheat in everything else in life if they can get away with it, (2) its not fair to the other teams who actually are playing under the illusion that its an even playing field, and (3) if the folks who run the scramble don't care enough to enforce a few rules, why have any rules at all?

[Par Fore]

You guys enter an event in which you can buy mulligans, string and throws, and expect a "fair" competition? PM me... I have this bridge I'd love to sell you!

Man, it's for charity......it doesn't mean you also donate your integrity.....golf pros do a lot of silly events and things for charity, but they still keep within the wacky rules......cheating at a charity event is like sleeping with your sister - yeah, you might be getting some, but dude - IT's YOUR SISTER

[Wet Doggg]

I have seen this quite often and to be honest it is really sad. I used to run a Marketing Department for a business to business trade exchange. Every summer we sued to run a golf outing for each one of our offices. My most memorable cheating innocent was in our Cleveland office. I was asked to play with our district manager and the office manager and their top client. I was playing to about a scratch at the time and everyone else was a 8 or below. The weather was horrible. Windy, rain and the course play REALLY long. There was also another group of guys who all played to a 5 or better. They turned in a very respectable 64 (-8) and we turned in a 65. The group behind us turned in a 55...yes a 55. Not one of these guys could hit a ball more than 150 yards and at the end of the round they were so drunk that two of the guys fell out of their carts n the parking lot.

Needless to say...the team that shot 64 was a little peeved. I ended up buying a second set of prizes and sent it to them and thanking them for understanding.

[clubchamp]

I've played in quite a few 4 man scrambles with my dad (1 handicap) and cousins (scratch and 4). We generally shoot 15 to 20 under every scramble we play without cheating. The worst we've ever done is 11 under but we try to avoid scrambles with all side stuff. We've had people question us and say we cheated all we tell them is to get their team and we will go play $100 a hole. I won't argue that there is definitely a lot of cheating that goes on in scrambles. I played in a 2 man scramble with my buddy who's basically a weekend golfer and we shot 74 got in to see the winning score was a 60. The next closest was a 68 by two guys I know are a +1 and scratch plus there was no mulligans etc. Pretty much at the end of the day if I'm playing in scramble I'm just there to enjoy the day esp if it's a charity tournament because the real winner is the charity.

[jhawker23]

You guys enter an event in which you can buy mulligans, string and throws, and expect a "fair" competition? PM me... I have this bridge I'd love to sell you!

I find it interesting that those of you who are of the opinion "who cares" are also probably respectful of the game and play with etiquette. There was a recent post about "putting out" when someone tells you to pick it up for a gimme. It was almost unanimous with many very passionate that you putt out. Okay, so hopefully you're not one of the people that share the opinion of who cares. Perhaps there is a problem when we hold the game with high-esteem except when we put charity in front of it. Cheating in a charity event seems even more despicable. I do think there is something wrong with cheaters regardless of the charity event. Most guys I know have to be selective because we don't have $200 to donate every weekend. I think it is well within reason to at least be respectful of the idea that good people "shouldn't" be cheated.

Of course there will always be a cheater somewhere. I'm more disturbed by the notion of "who cares". I'm not losing sleep over it but I'm not saying that since you can buy a mulligan that its okay to just make up a score on a hole or two. That is nutty thinking to be technical. And no, not every tournament is won by cheaters, of course not. For the previous poster that interpreted my post to say that, you can't be serious. I do think it is valid to hold the game in high-esteem and be just as concerned when great lovers of the game throw rules to the wind because you can buy string and the money goes to charity. I'm more disturbed by the acceptance than the cheating. And yes, its possible to "care" about the cheating while still having a great time helping a good cause.

[jhawker23]

Man, it's for charity......it doesn't mean you also donate your integrity.....golf pros do a lot of silly events and things for charity, but they still keep within the wacky rules......cheating at a charity event is like sleeping with your sister - yeah, you might be getting some, but dude - IT's YOUR SISTER

You said it much better than I did... and in much less time.

[msd3075]

You said it much better than I did... and in much less time.

The problem is that we might all be talking about different types of tournaments. On one hand you have a tournament that is a true "golf" tournament that just happens to be donateing proceeds to charity. On the other hand you have tournaments that aren't really meant to follow any set rules and are only using the golf course as a means to raise money, NOT to stage any sort of competition. To cheat in the first type of tournament does go against the spirit of the game, but for the second type of tournament it really doesn't have anything to do with the "rules of golf" or "etiquette" at all. It's a fundraiser that just happens to take place on a golf course. In those type of tournaments, you are absolutely fooling yourself if you are trying to "compete" against anyone or if you are mad when someone finishes better than you do. If your only concern is having a good time and dontating money to charity, why does it matter what someone else does in a different group?

[Par Fore]

In those type of tournaments, you are absolutely fooling yourself if you are trying to "compete" against anyone or if you are mad when someone finishes better than you do. If your only concern is having a good time and dontating money to charity, why does it matter what someone else does in a different group?

Here's the problem........typically charity tournaments cost you a pretty penny to enter.......they use the charity to typically get donations of some pretty nice prizes for longest drive, closest to the pin, and the top 3 spots.....they use these prizes to heavily advertise a reason for you to drop large coin on the event.....you figure, what the hell, it's for charity, and if we play really well, we might just win something.....you hit the course, and lo and behold, you play GREAT......as a group of hackers, you shoot 60 and feel pretty damn proud.....you watch the guys in front of you all day and they are all over the place.....you watch the group behind you and they can't make a 3 foor putt, much less chip the ball anywhere near the hole.......you are proud of that 60, post up your score with your head held high, and think maybe you just might win something....

Well, the group in front of you posts a 55, and the group that was behind you puts up a 54...... Hey, I don't mind losing.....and for the record, I always get on teams that have zero hope of putting up a 60......but nobody likes to be cheated.....and when you see them announce the winners, which happen to be the 4 drunkest fools on the course, see half the crowd shake their heads, and these guys all walk away with a new set of Mizuno irons, there can be some bad feelings......that type of cheating leads to people not wanting to play the next year, which hurts your donations and charity..... Sorry, but integrity and character go a long way......for some people, it's the principle and they see rewarding that type of activity as something they don't want to be identified with......your word is your bond.....again, that's just me, but some people are different....

[clubchamp]

I find it interesting that those of you who are of the opinion "who cares" are also probably respectful of the game and play with etiquette. There was a recent post about "putting out" when someone tells you to pick it up for a gimme. It was almost unanimous with many very passionate that you putt out. Okay, so hopefully you're not one of the people that share the opinion of who cares. Perhaps there is a problem when we hold the game with high-esteem except when we put charity in front of it. Cheating in a charity event seems even more despicable. I do think there is something wrong with cheaters regardless of the charity event. Most guys I know have to be selective because we don't have $200 to donate every weekend. I think it is well within reason to at least be respectful of the idea that good people "shouldn't" be cheated.

I think people are saying who cares because there is nothing you can do about it so just enjoy the day. Look at it like this you know when you decide to play in scramble that there will be some serious golfers who will follow the rules. However there will also be a lot of scramble hackers who don't care or don't know the rules. That's why generally scrambles aren't meaningful tournaments granted the payouts are sometimes nice. If there was a way to stop cheating in scrambles you wouldn't see near as many people playing in them.

[clubchamp]

I find it interesting that those of you who are of the opinion "who cares" are also probably respectful of the game and play with etiquette. There was a recent post about "putting out" when someone tells you to pick it up for a gimme. It was almost unanimous with many very passionate that you putt out. Okay, so hopefully you're not one of the people that share the opinion of who cares. Perhaps there is a problem when we hold the game with high-esteem except when we put charity in front of it. Cheating in a charity event seems even more despicable. I do think there is something wrong with cheaters regardless of the charity event. Most guys I know have to be selective because we don't have $200 to donate every weekend. I think it is well within reason to at least be respectful of the idea that good people "shouldn't" be cheated.

I think people are saying who cares because there is nothing you can do about it so just enjoy the day. Look at it like this you know when you decide to play in scramble that there will be some serious golfers who will follow the rules. However there will also be a lot of scramble hackers who don't care or don't know the rules. That's why generally scrambles aren't meaningful tournaments granted the payouts are sometimes nice. If there was a way to stop cheating in scrambles you wouldn't see near as many people playing in them.

[WUTiger]

Down in Oklahoma, our town had several "semi-pro" scramble teams. You'd have five or six guys who played together all the time, and pretty well had all aspects of the game covered. If everyone was available for a tournament, they would vary the team mix depending on the course they played.

Guys on these teams tended to be self employed, or early retirees. And, they would average a scramble a week. In you subtracted out entry fees and gas mileage, these guys usually "turned a profit" for the March to October months.

(Not nearly enough to live on of course, but definitely had winnings exceeding expenses.)

[TheGeekGolfer]

Maybe I'm missing something, but

... what a stupid argument! Everyone always tries to use that excuse for not monitoring the tournament, doing dumb rules things, etc. Not all of us have money to throw around to donate to charity. We use these types of tournaments to have a fun time with our friends, play some good golf, and feel good that part of the money goes to either a national or local charity.

I guess you can get away with anything if it's 'for charity' ! If it's for charity, then just give your money and don't go play. The point of the charity is to raise money, they get more players by putting on a fair and fun tournament with good prizes. Therefore, they raise more money and everyone feels good about playing a fun tournament and donating to a good cause. People that cheat in these things are the worst, if you're going to cheat, just save your money, don't donate it, and go buy a 'prize'.

[clubchamp]

... what a stupid argument! Everyone always tries to use that excuse for not monitoring the tournament, doing dumb rules things, etc. Not all of us have money to throw around to donate to charity. We use these types of tournaments to have a fun time with our friends, play some good golf, and feel good that part of the money goes to either a national or local charity.

Like I said if scrambles were monitored and everyone had to play by the rules you would see a lot less golfers. No one is saying it's for charity so you can get away with anything but you know that you can't stop anyone from cheating. Unfortunately there's quite a few foursomes of guys who don't play golf except for 2 or 3 scrambles a summer and shoot 10-11 under but probably didn't actually break par. This is why I only play in scrambles that are for a charity close to my heart or work related so I don't get upset with all the cheating.