Stack and Tilt IS TRADITIONAL

[uttexas]

Thanks for the breakdown, Erik. Really good stuff.

[JGus]

I have followed the S&T; posts here for a while now and am thinking about learning more about it, but had a couple quick questions, appreciate any feedback.

I have had ACL Reconstruction on my right knee as well as a couple scopes, as a right handed player sometimes the pain in my knee is so bad that I can't get the weight back on my right side, which ultimately causes my lower body not to move at all.

I was at the range on Thursday night and my knee was hurting a little so I decided to try to hit the rest of the bucket with the weight on my left side. It took a few swings to get used to it, but once I did it a few times I really couldn't tell I was doing things differently. I did not change anything in my stance, grip, or swing, other than shifting my weight to the left side.

I played 36 holes on Saturday and 18 on Sunday, all three rounds I played with the weight shifted to my left side. I seemed to be making better contact with the ball for the most part, and had some great shots, but have my own inconsistency woes that I am working on.

Three things kept hurting me both days:
1. A Pull with 5-7 irons, rescues, and 3 & 5 woods. Club Face at impact would be maybe 1" to 2" closed.
2. Pull Hook or Slice with Driver. Club head would be 2" to 3" closed.
3. Blade or very low shots with 8-9 and wedges.

I know some of the pulls and slices come from me over swinging, which causes me to close the club face at impact, but even when I had a smooth tempo the club still seemed to be closed and my shots were about 15-20 yards left.

So finally to the questions (sorry for the book):
1. When starting with the weight on the left side, should the grip be adjusted any to open/close the club face?
2. Does having the weight on the left side affect the ball position? Should it be moved forward a little?
3. When hitting with rescue clubs, fairway woods, and driver, am I suppose to feel like I am hitting down on the ball more than with the weight normal? (the obvious answer to me is yes)

Thanks again for any feedback.

[stacks04]

Well, i bought the book, read the backswing stuff, more than once and practiced. I had some questions about the initial movements but the book answered those. Off the tee friday i drove a lot better, I only had 2 bad slice shots and the other 7 were decent. I did notice with the 10.5 degree burner the ball gets off alot higher than before. Distance seemed consistent with the good shots and the old bad swing. I am having a hard time with the irons though. I am topping the ball alot resulting in short ground balls. I did notice on the irons i made good solid contact with it gave me a good one club change in distance for the better. I had a couple 9 iron shots where i would normally be on the green with a slight roll, now have turned into a hit to the back of the green and roll off. Once i gain consistency with the swing mechanics i guess i will be relearning distance control again. It made for a bunch of nicer shots friday, but the same scoring due to the bad iron work. I was happy though with the results so far.

[iacas]

I know some of the pulls and slices come from me over swinging, which causes me to close the club face at impact, but even when I had a smooth tempo the club still seemed to be closed and my shots were about 15-20 yards left.

You likely weren't taking your hands back on the arc. Weight can be forward, too, but if it just spins from there you can also come over the top. The rest of your comments are best served for the "Pattern" thread... as I'll tell stacks now.

Well, i bought the book, read the backswing stuff, more than once and practiced.

We have threads for the book itself and for the pattern itself. Please keep commentary of that nature to those threads, as this one is for the discussion of just what is "traditional" in the golf swing.

[JGus]

The rest of your comments are best served for the "Pattern" thread...

Thanks, will post there.

[stacks04]

You likely weren't taking your hands back on the arc. Weight can be forward, too, but if it just spins from there you can also come over the top. The rest of your comments are best served for the "Pattern" thread... as I'll tell stacks now.

Sorry Iacas, got the two mixed up. Feel free to move my post if it serves the thread better.

[Topper]

[Sorry for the long post, but OP's comments really resonated with me.]

I read your (OP) post and was amazed at how accurately it reflected my feelings this golf season. I am a middle-aged (although older than most on this forum) beginning golfer with a long history of athletics: high school and college basketball, bike (the pedal kind) racing, weightlifting/strength training, boxing, Thai boxing, etc. I understand the importance of coaching and instruction when taking on a new sport...so I thought golf would be no different. I was wrong....mostly.

I am not afraid to take (and pay for) lessons. I even took time to visit a golf course and take a lesson during my family vacation. I've had 3 different PGA instructors and countless well-meaning friends and acquaintance give advice and have read countless golf articles. I have subscriptions to Golf Digest and Golf. I have not had a SnT lesson or know that much about SnT except that it focuses on keeping weight left.

In short, the best lesson I had was the first one. The instructor showed me how to hold a golf club in a neutral grip and stand. After that, lessons were not all that productive....and quite possibly counterproductive. Why do I say that you might ask. Because like the OP said (for the most part), golf instructors make the swing so *$%

[RockingCPA]

I took my first lesson yesterday from a guy named Steve Holmes in Moorpark, CA that teaches Stack and Tilt.  He is also a part-time pro player that had status on the Nationwide tour in 2010, and played in the Justin Timberlake tournament, and was lead in driving accuracy one day with a distance average of about 285.  He uses video in teaching, which was another big reason I went to him, and we found that I was actually doing quite a few things very well, but...

BACKGROUND

I started playing 13 years ago, but took about 3 years off and just started again about 3 months ago.  My biggest problem has been hitting fat iron shots.  I've been driving the ball pretty well and hitting just under 60% of the fairways (which is much better than before I quit), and averaging about 235 off the tee.  My longest drive in the last 3-4 rounds being 268 and in the fairway.  I've been shooting consistently in the mid-upper 80s and those fat iron and wedge shots have cost me at least 4-6 strokes per round, where I'm making double or worse.  My goal is to be a single-digit hdcp by mid 2011.  The lowest it's ever been was 10.91.  I think going from a 14 to a 9 is much harder than going from 20 to a 14, because you MUST be consistent and avoid those bad swings that cause a big number on any hole at any time.

THE LESSON

So, I decided S&T; might be the answer to improve my ball striking.  What we found on video is that I was not getting my weight enough to my left (forward) leg and I was releasing a little early, so the shaft was even with the ball.  With those 2 problems I could easily hit 2" to 4" behind the ball.  I had already started trying to keep my weight on my left foot and not moving my head off the ball, and just those 2 things had helped, but still wasn't great.  The other changes he wanted to make weren't as dramatic.  The main points I struggled with was sliding the hips left vs spinning and maintaining the angle in the right wrist past impact, with the hips being the more difficult for me.  What I found easy was that you straighten your right leg while loading your weight into a bent left leg in the backswing and then spring up in the downswing, which is like cracking a whip.  My hands became more passive, which is what I believe tightened up the dispersion pattern while gaining club head speed.  Steve was great and worked with me for over 2 hours to make sure I took the changes with me.  I saw an immediate improvement in my dispersion pattern.  I gained a some distance with my irons, and I didn't loose any distance with the driver (which, again, I was hitting pretty well, probably because I didn't have to contend with the ground).  Toward the end, as I was getting more comfortable with the swing, I started hitting the driver farther, as well, AND straight.  Probably the biggest thing I gained was more consistency in the ball striking, which, again, was what I was looking for.

I'm committed to this change, as the concept makes perfect sense to me.  By setting your weight left and then moving more left, it eliminates what I perceive is probably the most complicated move, shift to the right turn-shift back to the left and turn.  Simpler is better for most of us...definitely for me.

Thank you Steve Holmes and thank you Stack and Tilt.

Bob

Edit 12/25/10:  I bought the Stack and Tilt eBook last night for Kindle on my iPad.  It is quite enlightening how many of the principals of S&T; come from classic swings.  So far, I'm impressed with the book.

[Ducey]

Why don't instructors want to teach the Stack and Tilt? The answer is job security. When an amateur leans the fundamentals of S&T, it happens relatively quickly and they begin to improve quickly. No need to continue to pay for expensive golf lessons if you improve quickly. Keep struggling with the other nonsense and continue to pay for lessons that take longer to improve! 

[iacas]

On 9/9/2023 at 3:58 PM, Ducey said:

Why don't instructors want to teach the Stack and Tilt? The answer is job security. When an amateur leans the fundamentals of S&T, it happens relatively quickly and they begin to improve quickly. No need to continue to pay for expensive golf lessons if you improve quickly. Keep struggling with the other nonsense and continue to pay for lessons that take longer to improve! 

No, it's not that.

[Vinsk]

On 9/9/2023 at 3:58 PM, Ducey said:

When an amateur leans the fundamentals of S&T, it happens relatively quickly and they begin to improve quickly.

And that would be such a turn off for those seeking instruction. 
‘Oh….you improved quickly? Not for me…’

🙄

[ChiTown]

Wow is this an interesting thread. My swing is definitely a “stack and tilt” style of swing, and I’m 100% on it. As an amateur I like to keep things simple, and that’s what S&T does for me. So while others are trying to build a draw, fade, etc. I’m just looking for consistent down the middle ball flight. Dispersion is going to happen anyway.