Net Score=Load of crap

[zeg]

The 95 player could easily have a miracle day (for him) and shoot 85. The 73 player will probably never shoot 63 in this lifetime. Yet both scores are only 10 better than their averages. That gives the 95 player a win in most any stroke competition because his handicap will skew the result.

I've not played using handicaps much, but is it that much of a problem on an individual (stroke play) one-on-one competition? I'd think things would be reasonably level in that case since, as you mentioned above, the high-capper is also more likely to shoot way over his handicap. For a tournament with many players, I'd expect this effect to virtually guarantee that SOME high-capper would win, since any one is not that likely to go very low, but one in a dozen of them probably will on any given day...

[DavidFehertysBike]

You took the words right out of my mouth...

If you had a 20 handicap in his club championship and a scratch golfer in there as well, the 20 handicap wouldnt have do much besides what was common for his game to win the tournament. I think a 20 handi usually shoots in the mid to low 90's on average. Say a par of 70, the 20 shoots 90 both days. depending on course slope and handicap, thats a probably net score around +1 or +2. Say the scratch shoots 72 both days. Good scores for that level of player. He just lost, even though he scored dramatically better than the player he lost to. That kind of disparity is difficult to overcome.

[trickymicky69]

I play with three guys every Sunday, and we always play for money.
The handicaps range from 6-28 and we would not convince anyone to have any healthy competition let alone play for money if we didn't have handicaps.
I actually think we would struggle to find a regular four-ball, as the higher cappers would lose interest.
Nobody is naive enough to think that the net adjusted score is the sign of a better player, just that on the day, to handicap one guy played better than the other.
If you want to play and not count handicaps then fine but don't discount as crap because loads of people enjoy it.

[acegolfer]

What's the point in even playing if a guy who shoots a 77 technically beats the guy shooting a 70. I've never competed in an actual league, and for this reason I probably never will.

In our last tournament, I shot 78 (net 63) and my buddy shot 70 (net 65). I broke the league's net score record, and he broke the gross score record.

Even though I won the tournament, I felt really bad for him. He deserved to win but it was a net score competition. I'm trying hard to get my HI down to 10 from 13.

[Fourputt]

I've not played using handicaps much, but is it that much of a problem on an individual (stroke play) one-on-one competition? I'd think things would be reasonably level in that case since, as you mentioned above, the high-capper is also more likely to shoot way over his handicap. For a tournament with many players, I'd expect this effect to virtually guarantee that SOME high-capper would win, since any one is not that likely to go very low, but one in a dozen of them probably will on any given day...

The problem is that if a 23 handicapper just shoots a good round, say 92 (3 under his handicap), then the 2 handicapper almost has to shoot a personal best (69) to tie. It is far more likely that the 23 capper will shoot 92 than the low capper will shoot 69 (or 68 to win

). Granted that if the high handicapper is having a typical day, then he would probably lose, but the percentages actually favor him most of the time. Golf handicap systems actually work best in match play because the strokes are only applied on specific holes where they are most likely to be needed. I have played a match where I had to give 26 strokes. I lost the match, but I took it all the way to the 18th hole. Had we been playing stroke play I'd have lost by 8 strokes, out of the game long before the 18th. For stroke play handicaps simply aren't as effective unless the differentials are in the same ball park, thus the flighting system is used most of the time for tournament play.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Most club championships are flighted. 0-7 in low, 7.1-10, 10.1-14, 14 up there are not typically strokes in those.

The reason for strokes and HC is gambling...there is no other way to do it. If you are honest and play many rounds the HC system works. My 4-some varies from a 7 to 15 and we play ever week plus some extra. Over the last 3 years we have had at leats 150 matches using honest HC.... we throw balls for partners and it works. Being honest with your score and the game is the key.

[acegolfer]

Even though it's not perfect, HI system works very well, if everybody records the scores honestly.

In our league we have about 15 players with HI ranging between 3 and 22. The guy who won the most tournaments so far is also the lowest capper. More often than not, HI system is fair.

[trickymicky69]

Even though it's not perfect, HI system works very well, if everybody records the scores honestly.

the guy who keeps winning (the low capper) is winning because he is so consistent - as you need be to get to a low hcap.

thats why he wins more than he loses

[pittpanther]

The problem is that if a 23 handicapper just shoots a good round, say 92 (3 under his handicap), then the 2 handicapper almost has to shoot a personal best (69) to tie. It is far more likely that the 23 capper will shoot 92 than the low capper will shoot 69 (or 68 to win

Fourputt, sorry to pick on you - I'm using your post as an example...

I'm seeing a fundamental misunderstanding of a HC - or perhaps I have the misunderstanding... A HC is not an average score, where people often hit below their HC. I thought a HC represented pretty much "the absolute best" this player is capable of, and should rarely if ever reach. So the example of the 20 HC shooting 10 under his HC, should NEVER happen! I'm in the ballpark of a 20 HC. I am not capable of shooting an 82 right now. Neither is any legit 20-HC, otherwise my HC would be in the 80s. Again, it seems that no one has faith in the HC system, not even those who profess to follow it. If you're using flights, that means the tournament does not believe in the HC system, or does not believe that the particpants are following the HC system...

[ajschn06]

I probably should have clarified. I obviously have golfing buddies, most of them aren't even good enough to realize what a handicap is, so I definitely give them a handful of strokes every time we play. I understand that, I was talking more about "Net Score" Tournaments. That whole idea seems worthless to me....

[saevel25]

I do say this, last week, went up with this guy in my league, we both have a 5 handicap (9 holes) in the league handicap system, we took a tie in holes won and in net score into the final hole. That ws a blast.

Handicap is one of the best things for the game of golf. It makes everything competative equal.

[Fat Slice]

If you had a 20 handicap in his club championship and a scratch golfer in there as well, the 20 handicap wouldnt have do much besides what was common for his game to win the tournament. I think a 20 handi usually shoots in the mid to low 90's on average. Say a par of 70, the 20 shoots 90 both days. depending on course slope and handicap, thats a probably net score around +1 or +2. Say the scratch shoots 72 both days. Good scores for that level of player. He just lost, even though he scored dramatically better than the player he lost to. That kind of disparity is difficult to overcome.

The thing is, that's not really representative of the scores a 20 handicapper is likely to shoot "on average." The 20 capper will pop off a 100+ round all too often. To take one for the hackin' team, I'll post my last 20 scores:

That's an average of 97.35. There are no two "90" scores back to back - that'd be hard! There are only 2 scores out of 20 that are 90 or lower. Add to that the tough pin positions you usually find at tournaments and you might realize that the non-sandbagging 20 capper is competing fairly with the scratch guy. added: Note that 5 out of 20 differentials were at my handicap index or below. That's 25% exactly!

[Fourputt]

Fourputt, sorry to pick on you - I'm using your post as an example...

One's index doesn't represent the "absolute" best, it reflects the player's scoring potential. He will almost have scores on his handicap list which are better than his handicap index, although a lot of that depends on the difficulty of the courses he plays. The index will always be lower than the average of the returned scores. The GHIN system is designed so that a player who maintains an honest handicap will only match or beat his handicap 25% of time. That percentage will change somewhat if a players game is generally improving or degrading.

Again you misread the purpose. I have total faith in the system to work as intended if the players return honest scores and if the system is implemented as it is intended to be. It is completely normal and proper for stroke tournaments to be flighted. That isn't a crutch, it is just the way that well run clubs do things. It is necessary because every stroke counts toward the final score... there is more room for variance. The flighting system makes the necessary adjustment to compensate for that. It is not necessary for that to be done in matches because you are not concerned with every stroke that is played. Once the play of a hole is finished, those strokes no longer matter. All that matters is whether you won, lost or halved the hole. As a result handicap strokes are only applied on the holes with handicap numbers which within the stroke differential between the two players. The GHIN system has to work for both methods of play and as such there are adjustments that must be made to ensure that the handicaps are applied equitably. This is how the system is designed to work and it works quite well when the handicaps involved are honestly maintained.

[Fat Slice]

Granted that if the high handicapper is having a typical day, then he would probably lose, but the percentages actually favor him most of the time.

That doesn't make sense to me. Please don't get hostile! If the high capper would lose on a typical day, then how to the percentages favor him most of the time?

Seriously - be nice - I just don't understand.

[zeg]

I'm seeing a fundamental misunderstanding of a HC - or perhaps I have the misunderstanding... A HC is not an average score, where people often hit below their HC. I thought a HC represented pretty much "the absolute best" this player is capable of, and should rarely if ever reach.

While I agree that it's a common misunderstanding, shooting 10 under does happen. It happened to me. I don't keep an official handicap, but I track every score and run the computations myself, so I know what my index was as accurately as the system allows. With a 36.4 (worst possible) handicap, I shot a 98 (+29) on a course where I got 39 strokes, so that's -10... That should happen one in several hundred thousand rounds (i.e., virtually never) according to the USGA tables. The problem is that the number assumes you are and will always be at the current level you're playing. It does not account for improvement, particularly not the sudden changes in performance that tend to happen for relative beginners.

[Fourputt]

That doesn't make sense to me. Please don't get hostile! If the high capper would lose on a typical day, then how to the percentages favor him most of the time?

I meant if he is playing his typical erratic game. When he is playing well and the low capper is playing well, the high handicapper will win on total net strokes more often, because there is so much more room for the the high capper to play below his handicap.

[Harmonious]

All stroke play tournaments I have ever played in were flighted, with both a gross and a net payout. In the "First Flight" with handicaps of 0-7, for example, there would be a low gross winner and a low new winner, with the prizes being equal. If the payouts were only based on net scores the lower handicapper would hardly ever win. I would never play in a net only tournament.

[case31]

I play in a league that is usually a 9-hole league. A couple times a year they do an 18-hole "major". There is supposed to be an official handicap calculation for all players, but it's never accurate. Below are the results from the top 3 finishers:

SCOREHANDICAP NET SCORE
8421 63
8418 66
9124 67