My Swing (Zeph)

[Zeph]

Are there any SnT/HSK instructors nearby you?

I assume you meant 5SK. Afraid not. I'm taking lessons with Golf Evolution through Evolvr though, which is the next best thing for me. A search for "stack tilt "norway"" just lead me to my own forum profile. :-P I'm moving closer to Sweden in a month though, so I might be able to take a trip over there. [quote name="nevets88" url="/t/38285/my-swing-zeph/90#post_728205"]You seem to contract above the head (it goes down) in the swing with the ball and the head is perfectly still (Key #1) and the hands are higher in the picture without the ball which I'm sure you've already noticed.[/quote] Yep. Head movement is what I'm working on at the moment. [quote name="nevets88" url="/t/38285/my-swing-zeph/90#post_728205"]I have a similar problem except when I get my hands forward, sometimes I shank or thin it, but I'm progressing slowly. It's hard to get rid of old habits. Getting my arms down faster and the drill where you preset your weight and hands forward helped me.[/quote] The problem with getting the arms down faster is that it just result in flipping faster too. My work on swinging the arms faster was primarily to improve the sequencing on the downswing. I still throw away the club on the downswing. If anything I just throw it faster. [quote name="nevets88" url="/t/38285/my-swing-zeph/90#post_728205"]This sounds crazy, but how about taping yourself blindfolded or eyes closed. Take yourself literally. [/quote] Not crazy, but I might try the forward focus drill from The Impact Zone first. Looking 2-4 inches in front of the ball when swinging. Might be worth a shot though, swinging with eyes closed. I believe it's about pressure points and driving the club, as opposed to start throwing it away right from the top. I've got the PBS, Youtube-videos, books and everything, so I'll get some work done there. I'll keep working on my lessons with GE, but I think this is a thing I can't fix by fixing everything else. I've got to educate my hands, as they so eloquently put it. Not by holding the wedges, keeping the left wrist flat or something like that, but by maintaining the pressure and through the downswing to maximize it at point of impact. Starting with chipping and moving up to the full swing. Found and older post by me on the same topic: http://thesandtrap.com/t/38285/my-swing-zeph/54#post_592486 I can hit the ball very well on punch shots. I once played a few rounds in calm weather, then one day it was blowing pretty hard. I choked up and hit punch shots all around the course. Hit the ball beautifully. I do something different when I hit punch shots. Driving the ball into the ground, pressure points etc. If I could get that mindset into the full swing, I might start seeing some changes. I'm not that far away. Just a matter of getting the hands a little more forward at impact. Then I can start worrying about my shot cone.

[TN94z]

Your swing is looking great man!  I was on a little hiatus for a while and I am just now getting back to golf.  So I went back through and watched some of your videos.  It's come a long way!

I hit some balls yesterday after not swinging for a while and it was TERRIBLE!  I've got to get back to form

[Zeph]

Just plugging along on the usual stuff. No revelations yet. I moved the ball up a bit. Now playing it no farther back than a ball or two inside the left foot. [VIDEO]http://youtu.be/togWtxLPjsY [/VIDEO] [VIDEO]http://youtu.be/s8tb1tzQTOA[/VIDEO]

[JetFan1983]

I think I asked you this once, but I can't remember your response. Why not try feeling a little palmar flexion on the downswing? I know you already hit a draw but palmaring would certainly get the shaft leaning forward real fast.

[Zeph]

It would be easier listing the things I haven't tried yet. At this point I'm keeping focus on my lessons and putting in some other stuff here and there in between. I've tried holding the wrists, but it didn't work very well.

[JetFan1983]

The reason I ask is because I've had 14 stack and tilt lessons plus two clinics as well as having observed them give many lessons, and the drill they always give the student to fix this problem is making them feel extreme palmar flexion on the downswing using half swings. Then, whether the contact was good or not, they show the student a video clip of the first swing they make where they get the shaft leaning forward the correct amount. It took me about four hours to get it just once the first time I tried it. Keep your Ricky fowler backswing because that prevents you from getting laid off, but feeling a lot of wrist bowing into the follow through might help, assuming you can still manage to dorsiflex at the right time into your follow through to keep the path from going too far to the right. Anyway, you obviously have your lesson plan, but I thought I'd share the process they use when giving in-person lessons.

[Leftygolfer]

I'm similar in that i can hit it so much more solid hitting little shots.  Punches, I'm a real pro at.  I can take the niceist divot hitting a little 90 yard PW.  But then I try to hit it stock I can't take a bit of turf.  I guess my question is why don't you (or me) make that our stock swing?  I don't play huge courses where I struggle with distance.  Does it really matter if I hit an 8I from 130?  Just a thought.

Your move is looking better and better.  Good work.

[Zeph]

The reason I ask is because I've had 14 stack and tilt lessons plus two clinics as well as having observed them give many lessons, and the drill they always give the student to fix this problem is making them feel extreme palmar flexion on the downswing using half swings. Then, whether the contact was good or not, they show the student a video clip of the first swing they make where they get the shaft leaning forward the correct amount. It took me about four hours to get it just once the first time I tried it.

I'll give it a go, thanks. [quote name="JetFan1983" url="/t/38285/my-swing-zeph/108#post_733462"]Anyway, you obviously have your lesson plan, but I thought I'd share the process they use when giving in-person lessons.[/quote] I always appreciate tips and suggestions. As mentioned, I always got this stuff in the back of my head, even if I'm working on something else. I throw in some experimenting with it from time to time, trying out new ideas. I'll try some wrist extension and flexion. :-) [quote name="Leftygolfer" url="/t/38285/my-swing-zeph/108#post_733470"]I'm similar in that i can hit it so much more solid hitting little shots.  Punches, I'm a real pro at.  I can take the niceist divot hitting a little 90 yard PW.  But then I try to hit it stock I can't take a bit of turf.  I guess my question is why don't you (or me) make that our stock swing?  I don't play huge courses where I struggle with distance.  Does it really matter if I hit an 8I from 130?  Just a thought. [/quote] Yeah, it does matter. The courses here are not extremely long, but I can't hit long irons into most of the greens, it's too inaccurate. I'm already hitting some long irons into greens on long par threes and fours. If I could make sure I get good contact on every shot, the distance is pretty good, even with a shorter swing. Not the really short punches though. It's easier hitting a 6i on a 180 yard par 3 than a 4i.

[bunkerputt]

Wow Zeph.  You're getting so close man, but you're missing some pieces.  You've got a decent enough position at the top, you just crank that left shoulder up and uncoil the shoulders from the top way too soon.  The club can't help but flip from there.  Try driving the left knee and left shoulder into the ground from the top, get the arms down quicker, then uncrank it, shoulders up, handle left.  Do some of this because it applies to you.  Pay attention to the phrase "You start to throw it away because the left shoulder comes up":

[Zeph]

Wow Zeph.  You're getting so close man, but you're missing some pieces.  You've got a decent enough position at the top, you just crank that left shoulder up and uncoil the shoulders from the top way too soon.  The club can't help but flip from there.  Try driving the left knee and left shoulder into the ground from the top, get the arms down quicker, then uncrank it, shoulders up, handle left.  Do some of this because it applies to you.  Pay attention to the phrase "You start to throw it away because the left shoulder comes up":

I agree, it is looking very good. Most of it at least. To me, the sequencing between the arms and shoulders doesn't seem too off compared to the models. I'd like my hips to be a little less open at impact, but it looks to me like I should be able to hit it properly at this point. What I'm seeing is the club being thrown away from the top. I could probably improve some sequencing on the downswing, but to me, it looks like the issue is mainly located at the wrists. Feel free to argue that I'm wrong. I'm probably wrong more often than I'm right, but that doesn't keep me from trying. Pop Quiz: What's the difference between my swings? [SPOILER=Warning: Spoiler!]A golf ball![/SPOILER] The positions on the swings are pretty much the same, with the exception of the club. Wrists control the club, so my reasoning is that the wrists are the cause for my problems. Looking at my old swing, it is not difficult to explain why I was forced to flip. Today, I wouldn't say my swing is forcing me to flip, but since I've been doing it for 10 years, my hands have learned that they are supposed to flip, throw the clubhead at the ball and I consequently do so all the time. [IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/igx5dc.jpg[/IMG]

[iacas]

Zeph, when you get a golf ball there, you direct the pressure where your right hand sits on top of your left hand at the golf ball. Direct it - throughout the downswing - forward of the golf ball. WELL forward of the golf ball. Almost up in the air and out by the flagstick forward.

To be clear, I'm talking about directing the pressure in the right hand where it touches the left hand - about at the base of the left thumb - and just keep directing that pressure with the right hand FORWARD. Not at the golf ball, FORWARD.

[Leftygolfer]

Zeph, I know you have been working hard for a long time.  I'm curious to what has happened with your scoring average.  To me, that is the biggest indicator of improvement.

[Zeph]

Zeph, when you get a golf ball there, you direct the pressure where your right hand sits on top of your left hand at the golf ball. Direct it - throughout the downswing - forward of the golf ball. WELL forward of the golf ball. Almost up in the air and out by the flagstick forward. To be clear, I'm talking about directing the pressure in the right hand where it touches the left hand - about at the base of the left thumb - and just keep directing that pressure with the right hand FORWARD. Not at the golf ball, FORWARD.

Pressure point 1, yes? I'll give it a go. I have found some different feelings in this area. There is a difference between directing the pressure towards the ground in front of the ball, and the air in front of the ball at hip height, where the hands really go. I believe I have a tendency to drop forward with the upper body when trying to get the hands down in front of the ball, rather than the air towards the target. As you noted in the [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/t/53131/lag-too-much-of-a-good-thing]Lag - Too Much of a Good Thing[/URL] thread, the hands reach lowpoint around impact. So by trying to get the hands lower after impact could just make my other stuff fail. [quote name="Leftygolfer" url="/t/38285/my-swing-zeph/108#post_734198"]Zeph, I know you have been working hard for a long time.  I'm curious to what has happened with your scoring average.  To me, that is the biggest indicator of improvement.  [/quote] Good question. I shot my best round ever with a 77 some time ago. From that round, my swing went a bit haywire, and shot 85's the following rounds. I don't really know what my average would be at this point. I play some golf, but it's usually practice golf. As long as I'm making changes in the swing, the shots will be inconsistent and affect my score. When I had a consistent swing going, I could hit over half the greens on the round. If I really make an effort to score, I think I can shoot in the mid to low 80's consistently at this point. I'll be looking at some new irons soon to help me out a bit. My current set is not quite as forgiving as I need them to be. I'm losing a few shots right now from off-center hits. Scoring average is of course an indicator, but I wouldn't say the best. If I went out and played golf today, I wouldn't say my score would reflect my swing, compared to a year ago. I hit it a lot more consistent then, but didn't have the control and ballstriking I wanted. I'm pretty much rating my progress by how I hit the ball. Quality of contact and the shot cone. Until I get my hands in a better position at impact, I'll be inconsistent in both areas. I've been swinging golf for a long time, and found that I'm happy with it. At some point, I'll hopefully play more golf, but right now, I'd be more happy with a good ballstriking round of 90 than a bad one of 80 where putting and short game was good. As Erik said in the [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/t/58816/65-25-10-practice-ratios-where-to-devote-your-practice-time]65/25/10 Practice Ratios: Where to Devote Your Practice Time[/URL] thread, working on putting and the short game is easy compared to the full swing. If I get the swing going, the rest of the game can be improved pretty quickly.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Pressure point 1, yes? I'll give it a go.

Basically.

Originally Posted by Zeph

There is a difference between directing the pressure towards the ground in front of the ball, and the air in front of the ball at hip height, where the hands really go. I believe I have a tendency to drop forward with the upper body when trying to get the hands down in front of the ball, rather than the air towards the target. As you noted in the Lag - Too Much of a Good Thing thread, the hands reach lowpoint around impact. So by trying to get the hands lower after impact could just make my other stuff fail.

To be clear the hands reach low point several inches before impact.

And the point of feeling the pressure driving "in the air" or "towards the target" or somewhere farther "ahead" of you is just that - to get the pressure directed more forward with less worry about how downward it goes.

[Zeph]

Suppose I know the answer to this, but should I keep some focus on the follow through? From impact to where the back arm is parallell to the ground. What I'm experiencing is that by pushing the palm forward like that, there is more of a snap, but at the same time the wrists rehinge faster after impact. I'm thinking I should do some flying wedge/hit and stop drills with the PP1 feeling to get the continuity. One thing I noticed on my practice swings is that at "impact", you can see the clubface more than on a normal swing from face on view, ie. being more open. Could it be that my grip is preventing me from getting a better impact position? If I keep reaching impact with a clubface being way open on the practice swing, could that relate to having to rotate the arms sooner and flipping to square the clubface and avoid pushing the ball 30º to the right? Looks to me like my arms rotate earlier.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Suppose I know the answer to this, but should I keep some focus on the follow through? From impact to where the back arm is parallell to the ground.

No. Why would you (as in just you, not the general you, and as it pertains to you, Zeph, right now, as there are obviously other times the "general you" should be concerned with the follow-through).

Originally Posted by Zeph

What I'm experiencing is that by pushing the palm forward like that, there is more of a snap, but at the same time the wrists rehinge faster after impact. I'm thinking I should do some flying wedge/hit and stop drills with the PP1 feeling to get the continuity.

I'd want to see video, but dude, who cares if they rehinge quickly? It's fine. You don't have to long arc everything. The hit/stop drill is fine, though. Never a bad idea to do it.

Originally Posted by Zeph

One thing I noticed on my practice swings is that at "impact", you can see the clubface more than on a normal swing from face on view, ie. being more open. Could it be that my grip is preventing me from getting a better impact position? If I keep reaching impact with a clubface being way open on the practice swing, could that relate to having to rotate the arms sooner and flipping to square the clubface and avoid pushing the ball 30º to the right?

Looks to me like my arms rotate earlier.

Flipping and rotating like this go hand in hand, yes. Re-cocking the club will hold off rotation, if anything, so that's part of the reason I'm not all that worried about it.

I don't really care what your practice swings look like without a ball. You know this. Might be fine as a feeling but clearly the same feelings don't translate when there's a ball there, so the feelings you get without a ball are of really limited use for you.

[Zeph]

I give up on the impact position for now and focus on the other stuff. Found the best results in a really short backswing with lots of early wrist cock and more forward press, but it doesn't work once the swing gets longer. If I try to push PP1 or swing the arms faster, the rest of the body interprets this to do whatever the heck they want. Hips: "Oh, you are swinging the arms down faster? Let me help you by not sliding and rotating faster than ever". Arms: "Good job pushing that pressure point man: We'll swing back to perpendicular to the target line so you can hit it even farther!" So I'll keep working on the steady head, shorter backswing, straightening back knee, preventing hips from spinning out too fast for now. Not really sure what I was trying on the first shot, but I believe it was just a short punch shot with more forward press. Worked pretty well though. When or if I ever get back to this work, I'll make a not of this one. [VIDEO]http://youtu.be/HkHE4iOZ3_g[/VIDEO]

[nevets88]

Originally Posted by Zeph

I give up on the impact position for now and focus on the other stuff. Found the best results in a really short backswing with lots of early wrist cock and more forward press, but it doesn't work once the swing gets longer....

Looks like you got it!

That's you call a really short backswing? That's almost my full backswing!. What do I know, I'd wait for Erik to chime in, but I'd stick with whatever you're doing now. You got the hands much more forwards.