PGA Fiasco

[j_moo]

These are the moments when I feel golf deserves its stereotype of being a game played by uptight white men in tacky pants.

Rules are suppose to make the game fair. Golf's rules punish. The implication is that the only reason why anyone breaks a rule is trying to cheat and therefore deserves to be punished.

This take attention away from the game and focuses on the rules, which is not the game.

[Boyder]

I'm sorry, but I have read so many of these threads/posts regarding Johnson's penalty at the PGA and I feel the need to add my 2 cents. Golf was never meant to be fair .... it's a tough game to play well. When you hit the ball as far off line as DJ did, you gotta expect some difficulty getting to the green in regulation. Hitting into a bunker is SUPPOSED to make it tougher - it's a Hazard you are Supposed to avoid. I think it was pretty obvious that DJ was so wrapped up in getting the shot off that he failed to realize where he was (not to mention he admitted to not knowing the local rules as he should have) - that's his fault, Not the PGA's, not Whistling Straits' or the game of golf's.

[Harmonious]

These are the moments when I feel golf deserves its stereotype of being a game played by uptight white men in tacky pants.

Who's stereotype? Yours?

And your statement that golf's rules punish is way off. If you knew the rules, you would know that they are in many ways there to help the golfer. Ever take a free drop from ground under repair or an embedded ball? The rules allow you to do that. Now if you violate a rule, there will be a penalty. But how is that different than soccer (red card/penalty kick), football (penalty), basketball (foul), bowling (foul), tennis (fault/double fault), hockey (penalty). Seems like other sports have rules, too. Suggest you get a rulebook and get more familiar with it.

[j_moo]

Please explain how simply grounding the club, not trying to make a sand tee, in a fairway bunker changes the shot. Or accidentally touching a debris on the backswing makes a difference? If unknowingly signing a wrong scorecard is a DQ, then should refs that make wrong calls, after video review, also be throw out of a game?

In other sports things happen in a blink and infractions are part of the game. This is not true in golf, unless you intend to cheat. If there's a RO with a group, there's nothing preventing the RO to protect the player, as is he/she job, and simply make sure the player is aware of the condition of his ball.

Who's stereotype? Yours?

[max power]

I'm sorry, but I have read so many of these threads/posts regarding Johnson's penalty at the PGA and I feel the need to add my 2 cents. Golf was never meant to be fair .... it's a tough game to play well. When you hit the ball as far off line as DJ did, you gotta expect some difficulty getting to the green in regulation. Hitting into a bunker is SUPPOSED to make it tougher - it's a Hazard you are Supposed to avoid. I think it was pretty obvious that DJ was so wrapped up in getting the shot off that he failed to realize where he was (not to mention he admitted to not knowing the local rules as he should have) - that's his fault, Not the PGA's, not Whistling Straits' or the game of golf's.

Great post.

[Stretch]

My grips may be tacky, but my pants are smooth.

[j_moo]

http://www.dann-online.com/corbin_fa...rofiber_fr.htm

[zeg]

Please explain how simply grounding the club, not trying to make a sand tee, in a fairway bunker changes the shot.

The club-grounding penalty has nothing to do with improving your lie. Putting your club in the sand may give you information about the texture and condition of the bunker. It may not, but then in basketball you get your free throws even if you're fouled on a shot that you were never going to make. The rule is as it is to make it enforceable and avoid bickering over how much you can touch the sand before you're probing it: the answer is none at all.

Or accidentally touching a debris on the backswing makes a difference?

Again, in some situations it could, so better to have an easily enforceable rule. Or would you rather have the rules officials come out and have a conference to determine whether that twig that was brushed out of the way was large enough to have warranted a penalty for improving the lie? Neither of these rules is punitive if you use a very reasonable amount of care. Heck, you're even given a free pass if you ground your club to prevent falling down or some other situation, so really the only way you get "punished" is if you ignore the rule. Doesn't sound like a problem to me.

If unknowingly signing a wrong scorecard is a DQ, then should refs that make wrong calls, after video review, also be throw out of a game?

I am somewhat sympathetic to the the idea that the rules about signing the scorecard with simple errors (or leaving without signing) are unfair, but in the end, I think it's better the way they are than to change them. The common thread among the rules is that they emphasize consistency and certainty of application. You are responsible for reporting the correct score. If anything comes up, you have more than adequate opportunities and procedures for resolving the questions without a DQ, and you just have to remember to sign the damn card. It makes me sad for someone who misses a big paycheck for a simple error like that, but not very sad---for tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, I'd be pretty damn sure that every score was correct and that my name was on the dotted line.

If there's a RO with a group, there's nothing preventing the RO to protect the player, as is he/she job, and simply make sure the player is aware of the condition of his ball.

The RO's job is to assist the player, not to babysit him. As has been discussed above, the RO thought it was obvious that the ball was in a bunker, and that his services were better applied to controlling the crowd after asking DJ if he needed any assistance.

[Plox]

I've seen better organisation at the local municipal's open. Pathetic marshalling and crowd control. The course is very gimmicky and synthetic, too.

[LongballGer]

The course has over 1200 bunkers.

There were notes EVERYWHERE that if your ball comes to rest on sand you are in a bunker.

The rules are the rules. If you are not playing by the rules you are not playing golf.

The only one to blame is DJ himself. If the same thing had happened to Kaymer instead of DJ nobody would´ve given a damn.

Case closed.

[Chas]

Rules are suppose to make the game fair. Golf's rules punish. The implication is that the only reason why anyone breaks a rule is trying to cheat and therefore deserves to be punished.

How on earth can you possibly know the motives of a professional sportsman who has clearly broken the rules? Of course you don't have a clue, and nor do I. We can only speculate, fine for golfing forums but no good for anything else.

If the rules aren't strictly enforced then it is obvious what will happen. Certain players will try to take advantage and the game will suffer greatly as a result. That is why any decent golfer will accept his "punishment" ..... because he knows it is for the good of the game that he respects. That is supposed to be why he's playing. Reminds me of the days I used to play in single elimination tennis tournaments (no umpire present). Some players (not many, but enough ...) would cheat at every opportunity, usually those who didn't have the game they thought they had or were just rotten sportsmen. I often wondered why such people bothered to play, at some level it must be hurtful to them. It was almost enough to drive me away from tournament play. If rules aren't very strictly enforced in tournaments, more and more people will behave like that IMO if there's a lot at stake. DJ has taken his medicine and hasn't whined about it. That say a lot about him as a person and about his attitude towards the game.

[j_moo]

The club-grounding penalty has nothing to do with improving your lie. Putting your club in the sand may give you information about the texture and condition of the bunker. It may not, but then in basketball you get your free throws even if you're fouled on a shot that you were never going to make. The rule is as it is to make it enforceable and avoid bickering over how much you can touch the sand before you're probing it: the answer is none at all.

Okay, but that doesn't help you in a fairway bunker, especially at the pro level. If probing is the issue, then you shouldn't be allow to walk on the sand, which tells you more about the condition of the sand than grounding the club. In DJ's situation, no advantage was gained by his grounding the club. Understand about making rules easy to enforce, but to the extent that it makes no distinction between accidentally doing something that has no impact on the outcome and intentionally cheating to affect the score just doesn't feel right.

Again, in some situations it could, so better to have an easily enforceable rule. Or would you rather have the rules officials come out and have a conference to determine whether that twig that was brushed out of the way was large enough to have warranted a penalty for improving the lie? Neither of these rules is punitive if you use a very reasonable amount of care. Heck, you're even given a free pass if you ground your club to prevent falling down or some other situation, so really the only way you get "punished" is if you ignore the rule. Doesn't sound like a problem to me.

I bet if you were to test all PGA players on the rules, the majority of them would probably fail. See what happened to Julie Inkster yesterday. In no other professional sport are the players asked to keep score and be mindful of all the rules like golf. If tennis can have 9 officials plus instant replay per match, golf can certainly have a RO per group in a major. As much as possible, take the burden off of the players and help them from committing infractions. This is one of the few sports where you don't have to do anything you are not suppose to.

The RO's job is to assist the player, not to babysit him. As has been discussed above, the RO thought it was obvious that the ball was in a bunker, and that his services were better applied to controlling the crowd after asking DJ if he needed any assistance.

What's obvious to one is not always obvious to all. That's why they have a person holding a sign with a number on it indicating downs in football games. It might have been obvious to the official, but certainly not to DJ and some of the commentators. If it was obvious and important, then it should be important enough to make obvious to even the most casual of observers.

How on earth can you possibly know the motives of a professional sportsman who has clearly broken the rules? Of course you don't have a clue, and nor do I. We can only speculate, fine for golfing forums but no good for anything else.

People cheat because they think they can get away with it. Since this is professional golf where every shot has cameras on it, there is no way any golfer can cheat. Suzanne Patterson a few years ago moved a leave and accidentally moved the ball unperceived by her or her playing partner. Only slow motion video showed the ball actually moved. This is the pros, not us playing at the local muni.

Unlike other sports, rule infraction in golf is preventable. They already have spotters/marshalls all over the course indicating when balls go OB or where it entered a water hazard. Why not take more of the burden away from the players and make sure the rules are enforced. What happened to DJ is not enforcing the rules, it is catching him after he broke a rule. Enforcing the rule would be to make sure he clearly understood he was in a hazard and can't ground his club, so that he doesn't ground the club. If your tennis matches had even just one ump per match, there would probably be no cheating. And not having umps at matches is the fault of the organization.

[iacas]

Okay, but that doesn't help you in a fairway bunker, especially at the pro level. If probing is the issue, then you shouldn't be allow to walk on the sand, which tells you more about the condition of the sand than grounding the club. In DJ's situation, no advantage was gained by his grounding the club.

Not only do I disagree that no advantage was gained, I'll point out that the rules are and must eliminate any and all grey areas which include things like "did he gain an advantage?" and "did he intend to do something?"

He touched the sand. You can't do that. It's a penalty. And I do think he gained an advantage. If it weren't advantageous to be able to ground your club, people wouldn't do it quite as often as they do now.

Understand about making rules easy to enforce, but to the extent that it makes no distinction between accidentally doing something that has no impact on the outcome and intentionally cheating to affect the score just doesn't feel right.

How can you prove what someone was thinking? You can only enforce the provable facts, and "he touched the sand" is one of those.

As much as possible, take the burden off of the players and help them from committing infractions.

No thanks. I prefer things the way they are - where people are responsible for themselves. Football players say "If you're not cheating, you're not trying" and I'd prefer that golf not go that route.

It might have been obvious to the official, but certainly not to DJ and some of the commentators.

Then it was his

responsibility to ask.

Since this is professional golf where every shot has cameras on it, there is no way any golfer can cheat.

Unlike other sports, rule infraction in golf is preventable.

No they're not. Or would you prefer that we warn every pro before every shot of every rule they might possible break? Rounds take long enough as it is.

Why not take more of the burden away from the players and make sure the rules are enforced.

In the case of Dustin Johnson, the rules WERE ENFORCED. It's only somewhat sad that he didn't enforce them on himself, or avoid the mess entirely and seek clarification if he was unsure.

What happened to DJ is not enforcing the rules, it is catching him after he broke a rule.

We similarly don't "enforce the law" by having police officers tell every citizen about every law on the books when they first wake up. It's done after someone is found to have violated the law.

[Harmonious]

People cheat because they think they can get away with it. Since this is professional golf where every shot has cameras on it, there is no way any golfer can cheat. Suzanne Patterson a few years ago moved a leave and accidentally moved the ball unperceived by her or her playing partner. Only slow motion video showed the ball actually moved. This is the pros, not us playing at the local muni.

You are wrong, again. During the course of a PGA tournament there are thousands of shots made where a ruling official is not present to observe. The responsibility to play by the rules rests with each individual golfer. The scorer is responsible to put down the correct score for his opponent, thereby protecting the entire field. If there is a question regarding the rules, they have the option of bringing in an official. If not, the players themselves are responsible for correct score.

Ask yourself this: If there had been no gallery for that shot, and Dustin Johnson had played the shot exactly the same way, and his playing partner, Nick Watney, had observed his shot (noticing the grounding of his club in the bunker), do you think for one second that Watney would have ignored it? Absolutely not! He would have immediately asked Johnson whether he had in fact grounded his club. Johnson would have said "Yes, I guess I did". After the hole, Watney would have written down Johnson's correct score of 7. He definitely would not have ignored the penalty, nor would he have warned Johnson that he was in a bunker before the shot. That was solely Johnson's responsibility. That's how golf is played, by the rules.

[j_moo]

Again, this is the PGA where millions of dollars are on the line. Having a RO/group is not too much to ask. I'm sure there are plenty of people happy to volunteer for free. Also, they don't have to explain every rule for every shot. But simply saying, "ball in hazard" or "player now hitting 3rd shot" would have prevented all this.

Don't compare this to the speed limit. There's no preventing that, but this is within reason.

It's been mentioned many times it's the player's responsibility to follow the rules. But it's not. The organizing body is responsible. Otherwise, why the video reviews and watching if the players are following the rules. Either you trust them or you don't. If you don't, which is the case here, then don't make it their burden to be responsible.

Rules are made by people for different situations. Just as there are different rules for college and pro basketball, there should be different rules for pro golf. Also, just because these are the rules do not make them correct. Rules also change to fit the times. How many of you think Gallaraga should have been given a perfect game or baseball and soccer should have instant replay?

[Shorty]

Again, this is the PGA where millions of dollars are on the line. Having a RO/group is not too much to ask. I'm sure there are plenty of people happy to volunteer for free. Also, they don't have to explain every rule for every shot. But simply saying, "ball in hazard" or "player now hitting 3rd shot" would have prevented all this.

You have got to be kidding.

Imagine it. The people who volunteer to do it for free wouldn't know the rules themselves, no matter how much training they got. Someone says. "Player now hitting 2". "What? err sorry. Player now hitting 4" What comfort this would bring to the players. Great. And imagine one of these people thinking aplayer had grounded his club in a hazard when he hadn't. All because there is one occasion (that I can think of) where a player was in a bunker but thought he wasn't, even though there are 1200 odd bunkers on the course and the players had been warned over and over. DJ messed up in a very obvious and stupid way. It was totally his fault. I challenge anyone to name another occasion where it would have been necessary, or even helpful to announce, prior to a stroke being played, where the player stood, location or score wise. I'll even go as far as to say that it wasn't even a "fiasco" at the PGA, just a player who should have known better (and I actually suspect he did) making a mistake that a newbie amateur would make.

[Harmonious]

Again, this is the PGA where millions of dollars are on the line. Having a RO/group is not too much to ask. I'm sure there are plenty of people happy to volunteer for free. Also, they don't have to explain every rule for every shot. But simply saying, "ball in hazard" or "player now hitting 3rd shot" would have prevented all this.

Now you are only showing how little you know about the situation, and about the game of golf.

[zeg]

Okay, but that doesn't help you in a fairway bunker, especially at the pro level. If probing is the issue, then you shouldn't be allow to walk on the sand, which tells you more about the condition of the sand than grounding the club. In DJ's situation, no advantage was gained by his grounding the club. Understand about making rules easy to enforce, but to the extent that it makes no distinction between accidentally doing something that has no impact on the outcome and intentionally cheating to affect the score just doesn't feel right.

It might help you. It might not. Want to try to codify the rule for deciding how close to the green it has to be before you get an advantage? How buried does your ball have to be in the lie before it's an advantage? The rule is simple, straightforward, and there is no interpretation necessary in its application. Golf doesn't have a referee to make the call, so what is a player supposed to do to decide how much he can ground his club? There's simply no practical alternative.

I bet if you were to test all PGA players on the rules, the majority of them would probably fail. See what happened to Julie Inkster yesterday.

What are you basing this on? The fact that you can think of two high profile (well, one high-profile, not sure if the Juli Inkster thing qualifies as high profile) rules infractions in the last month?

In no other professional sport are the players asked to keep score and be mindful of all the rules like golf. If tennis can have 9 officials plus instant replay per match, golf can certainly have a RO per group in a major. As much as possible, take the burden off of the players and help them from committing infractions. This is one of the few sports where you don't have to do anything you are not suppose to.

Why? Because in very rare occasions a player makes an error and is penalized for it when someone else observes and reports it? You know what? In sports *with* referees, there are contentious decisions and bickering over games being given away by bad calls a lot more often than in golf, and in golf it's almost always the *right* call being made in a case where the player made an actual error. Sorry, I think golf is better in this regard than any of the other major US sports.

What's obvious to one is not always obvious to all. That's why they have a person holding a sign with a number on it indicating downs in football games.

And they follow the groups with a scorecard for the players in the group, which is the closer analogy. I don't recall the football refs shouting to the defenders "Hey your receiver is 5 yards past the line, no more bumping," they have to know the rule and they have to know where the 5 yards past scrimmage line is.

It might have been obvious to the official, but certainly not to DJ and some of the commentators. If it was obvious and important, then it should be important enough to make obvious to even the most casual of observers.

You're flipping the responsibility around here. If your ball is sitting in sand and you are right next to a bunker on a course with over a thousand bunkers, you should ask for a ruling.

Unlike other sports, rule infraction in golf is preventable. They already have spotters/marshalls all over the course indicating when balls go OB or where it entered a water hazard. Why not take more of the burden away from the players and make sure the rules are enforced. What happened to DJ is not enforcing the rules, it is catching him after he broke a rule. Enforcing the rule would be to make sure he clearly understood he was in a hazard and can't ground his club, so that he doesn't ground the club.

What? Like Iacas (I think) said, the rules *were* enforced. The rule is that you can't ground the club in a hazard. He did. He gets a penalty. The rule he broke is crystal clear, and it seems like it was crystal clear that he was in the bunker and should have known it. Even if it wasn't clear, there were enough hints that he should have asked the RO when the guy asked if he needed anything.