Charley Hoffman's Winning Draw

[melchior]

I tend to swing like that. It is most noticeable with the driver, I end up with the clubface looking up at the sky. My instructor has been trying to rid me of that for a while now and I've been working on "releasing" the club.

Show your instructor this video and ask why you need to "release" at all. I'm so glad I found SnT so I don't have to listen to the "conventional" people that apparently don't know what they're talking about.

[DarkPrince]

I think the funniest part of this shot was that he mentioned later in an interview that it wasn't necessarily the shot he was trying to hit, it just came out that way :P

[sean_miller]

I think the funniest part of this shot was that he mentioned later in an interview that it wasn't necessarily the shot he was trying to hit, it just came out that way :P

Based on the way other people were playing that hole, and on the shot he almost holed earlier in the round (shown in the post tournament wrapup on pgatour.com - that gal is so . . . I digress), I suspect he was trying to hit it a slightly straighter and have his ball catch the ridge and release to the left down toward the hole. About a 5 yard difference - pretty close either way.

[majorchamp]

very cool..he has a nice swing.

It really is interesting...no matter how many swing "theories" that exist, whether its 1 plane, 2 plane, S&T;, or whatever... there is no real "pattern" that exists where a particular player with a particular swing "type" wins consistently..unless we are talking the superstars (Tiger, Phil, etc...).

One might say players utilizing S&T; type features are doing very well the last couple of years..but lets see how they span over the next 5-10 using those same principles.

I have never done my research, but if you go back the last 10 years and you look at all the tour players who have the most Top 5's or wins, and how their swings compare to each other...will we see a pattern that players utilizing particular swing aspects tend to win more..or will it be completely scattered across the board and simply a matter of players that win simply do what they do very well and consistently, regardless of whether they load up on the right side, or whether they load up on the left side, etc...

would love to look up stats like that.

[deronsizemore]

One might say players utilizing S&T; type features are doing very well the last couple of years..but lets see how they span over the next 5-10 using those same principles.

What about guys like Palmer, Hogan, Snead, etc... who utilized most of what Stack and Tilt teaches? They did alright.

[majorchamp]

What about guys like Palmer, Hogan, Snead, etc... who utilized most of what Stack and Tilt teaches? They did alright.

what frustrates me is if all these great players utilized S&T; moves..which I think is incorrect to label they had S&T; moves since S&T; is a recent "labeling" of things,but for ease of conversation we will stick with it...but how did they utilize the left side weight, head still, forward club shaft, etc... yet we moved (as a society) toward this "conventional" teaching method with loaded right side, shifting weight, etc... how did that separation happen, and only now in the last couple of years are we leaning toward a "system" (S&T;) that actively promotes what these players did in upwards of 50 years ago?

Also I guess I should rephrase my last question. Lets look at players who have actively played tournament golf in the last 10 years and look at their wins, top 5's, top 10's...and see what swing qualities they possess. I would like to know if modern players are utilizing S&T; type qualities and winning actively, or if the winners, top 5's, etc.. are across the board and there is no direct coorelation between their winning % and the "type" of swing method they utilize.

[sara]

Show your instructor this video and ask why you need to "release" at all. I'm so glad I found SnT so I don't have to listen to the "conventional" people that apparently don't know what they're talking about.

Yeah. One had me turning my wrists to get the clubface in the "correct" position in the followthrough. Figured it was an insightful drill but just took it as a drill and have not done it as part of my swing.

[majorchamp]

Yeah. One had me turning my wrists to get the clubface in the "correct" position in the followthrough. Figured it was an insightful drill but just took it as a drill and have not done it as part of my swing.

that would drive me batty having to worry about turning my wrists any direction.

When I swing back or through...I don't feel like I manipulate my wrists at all. When I lean into my left side at address, rotate my shoulders where I focus on my left shoulder turning under, my arms and hands seem to naturally follow the direction they should and hinge when they should. Maybe its just so ingrained in my swing I don't have to manipulate them..or maybe its once your body is in the right positions, it happens as a natural movement.

[deronsizemore]

what frustrates me is if all these great players utilized S&T; moves..which I think is incorrect to label they had S&T; moves since S&T; is a recent "labeling" of things

Right. They technically never had "stack and tilt" moves back then because there wasn't a name for what they were doing. It was just the best way to swing the club.

but how did they utilize the left side weight, head still, forward club shaft, etc... yet we moved (as a society) toward this "conventional" teaching method with loaded right side, shifting weight, etc.

I blame David Leadbetter and Golf Digest.

[iacas]

majorchamp, you have it somewhat backwards.

Hogan, Nicklaus, Palmer, Snead... Watson... Tiger, etc. They all exhibit a lot of S&T; moves because S&T; came about by studying what things separate good players from bad. Let's say Hogan did 12 of 13 S&T; pieces (I'm making up the 13 part, btw). Palmer did 11 of them, but maybe one of those 11 was the one thing Hogan didn't do. Tiger does maybe 9 (soon to be 11 or 12), Watson did 10... whatever. You can't say "it's incorrect to label that they had S&T; moves" because S&T; was derived from the moves they made. It's not an attempt to "back-date" S&T;, it's simply to show how S&T; came to be - they did these moves, and S&T; is built around them.

how did that separation happen, and only now in the last couple of years are we leaning toward a "system" (S&T;) that actively promotes what these players did in upwards of 50 years ago?

How? I don't know. Really sucks that that's what we've gotten to, though, doesn't it? One theory is that people saw photos of Nicklaus, misinterpreted some things, and tried to teach from that. Nicklaus' head didn't move, he took his hands well in (before lifting them), he rolled his ankles and got well forward, he extended really well... etc.

Now, this isn't an S&T; thread, and I don't want to turn it into one, so look up the many other existing threads on this if you want more. P.S. Do some reading here . And the "Stack and Tilt is traditional" thread. P.P.S.

I blame David Leadbetter and Golf Digest.

Ah, yes, hadn't thought of that. That's a big part there too, probably.

[sean_miller]

Lets look at players who have actively played tournament golf in the last 10 years and look at their wins, top 5's, top 10's...

This was originally a Charley Hoffman thread, so what did Charley Hoffman have in common with the best player of the past decade? Among other things, he was using a bag full of forged muscleback irons. Clearly everyone should do that.

[sara]

that would drive me batty having to worry about turning my wrists any direction.

Yes. It was an issue with my tempo more than having to actually turn my wrists but that instructor was really adamant on me doing that every time instead of leaving me to focus on my tempo. I stopped going with that instructor after that day.

[RC]

Going back to Hoffman's swing on that particular shot... In my little world of the golf swing, here is what I think was going on with that shot. The situation: He is going to hit a ball that draws right to left, but there is trouble left. He is in the process of making a good swing and makes one, but feels the inside out path is a little more than expected, so he executes a great swing but releases (meaning firing his extension) so the club comes out a little more right. To have hit a straighter shot with less draw, he would have released the club pretty much the same way but the shaft would have been very slightly more left, as well as his lower leg and knee position. He executed it through impact and kept his path. The result was a little more draw than optimal, but a well protected swing that would not draw too far left of his target. Had he been perfect, the ball would have landed just right of the pin. Now this is all conjecture, but many of you that have been in this situation (where you know you cannot go left too much) and have likely hit shots similar to this one. Yes, the ball draws more, but you also released more to the right of the normal straighter shot path, guarding against a pull or flip. In other words, rather than risking a straight shot at the pin and a possible slight pull or over draw, just hit it out there in a way you know will draw a good bit, but not enough to go too far left of the target.

Is this just conjecture? Of course. Who knows... the golfer in the moment is doing something that has a lifetime of experiences (in Hoffman's case) in executing shots and the sub-conscience is powerful factor, so Hoffman may not have pictured this exact shot (surely he did not expect to be left of the pin I would think) but he had the mechanics and skill to hit a beautiful shot under pressure that clearly illustrates some great physics of the golf swing. I keep watching it because it is such a great illustration of many good things about a well executed swing... not, perhaps, perfect but so well done that it creates awe in the observer while proving a host of swing truths and ball flight laws.

[RC]

And I should add, if he had elected a straighter shot, the club face angle would have been slightly different as well -- vectors all aligned to create a straighter path. Please don't think I meant "with the same club face angle." However, the club face would still have been upward and would not have flipped at all. I am talking about very, very small differences.

[Keep It Simple]

majorchamp, you have it somewhat backwards.

Hogan, Nicklaus, Palmer, Snead... Watson... Tiger, etc. may exhibit a lot of S&T; moves but not a single one of these players use the S&T; swing. If one component is missing (and the components are well defined in the book and video) than it is not an S&T; swing. Sean Foley does not teach S&T; because he does not incorporate all the moves and nor is it likely he ever will. There is a good youtube video of Sean O'hair giving a golf clinic and he clearly shows the difference between S&T; and Foley's method.

To claim you are an S&T; swinger you need to be constantly working towards incorporating ALL the components into your swing.

[Stretch]

Hogan, Nicklaus, Palmer, Snead... Watson... etc. may exhibit a lot of S&T; moves but not a single one of these players use the S&T; swing.

Indeed. Clearly the fact that they either died or pretty much finished their competitive careers well before this pattern was ever proposed should serve as a complete repudiation of the so-called S&T; method. Which is utter shite, let's face it.

[majorchamp]

Hogan, Nicklaus, Palmer, Snead... Watson... Tiger, etc. may exhibit a lot of S&T; moves but not a single one of these players use the S&T; swing. If one component is missing (and the components are well defined in the book and video) than it is not an S&T; swing. Sean Foley does not teach S&T; because he does not incorporate all the moves and nor is it likely he ever will. There is a good youtube video of Sean O'hair giving a golf clinic and he clearly shows the difference between S&T; and Foley's method.

can you embed said video...though I may have seen it...if it shows Sean talkinga bout the ball placement and his sternum, etc...

[kafka01]

Iacas -thanks a lot for posting this video. I dont have too much trouble getting this shotshape with an open clubface, angled hinge and cutting it left, but what really bugs me is trying to hit a pull fade at the moment. I guess there is no other way around than leaving the inside square inside path and coming from the outside, or?