Flipping Question, This possible?

[kennay92]

Hi, Im wondering if its possible to flip the club yet still have your divots coming in front of the ball. Because I feel like I still flip some, yet my divots most of the time, are starting at or in front of the ball.

Thanks

[Zeph]

Yes it is.

[Harmonious]

Flipping, as used here, just means you are adding loft by releasing too early. You can still hit the ball first, taking a divot after the ball. It's just that your effective loft is higher as your clubhead goes through the impact zone ahead of your hands rather than after. A five-iron, for example, is hitting the ball with an effective loft of a six-iron, rather than that of a four-iron, which would be preferable.

[kennay92]

Any tips guys, ive worked and worked on this but still cant get it quite right.

[iacas]

Yes, it's possible. You can also still "flip" post-impact.

Drills? My video wouldn't be a bad place to start. You don't need to do the pre-set forward weight part, either.

[jamo]

'Tis possible, I've done it for years. I've just recently (this year) made progress, just by (mostly, it's still a work in progress) eliminating the flipping.

[nevets88]

I've been working on this too. I thought I was on the right track when I got my divots ahead of the ball and videos showed hands at or slightly ahead of the ball at impact, but I chicken winged it, collapsed the elbows, I don't know how to explain it right after impact.

An SnT instructor got me to extend the arms and slide and tuck the hips and I think I'm on the right track now. For 2 weeks though, I was this close to quitting - I hit so many awful shots and shanks, but I eventually suffered through it.

This is where I kind of blame Johnny Miller and others saying that impact position is the be all and end all or maybe I misinterpreted it. You can have a good impact position but still have fundamental flaws in your swing. It least for me anyways.

I do the drill iacas mentioned and highly recommend it. Try a half swing or even a quarter swing. To me, the shorter the stroke, the easier to ingrain the feeling.

People recommended confessions of a former flipper, a Brian Manzella video. I got it and I like BM and there's good stuff in it, but I didn't really get as much out of it as I had hoped.

Try and emulate this guy:



On a more lighter note, try and look like Faxon post impact:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zynemXZaAYM

[Zeph]

Another video. Starts at 0:24

[TourSpoon]

They called him Flipper...Flipper...

Good drill...get a hockey stick or broom handle and put your hands 9-12 inches apart. Swing the stick. Swing with your hands closer together with the same feeling. Do this for 21 days in a row.

[$2 Nassau]

Been working on my wing/flip for ohhh...2 years now? Played with it for 5 years so I guess it takes time to fully fix. It just seems to creep back in and it's like starting over. I can't see Erik's video here at work, but if it's the flying wedge one - that has helped a lot. This year I actually made some progress, I think, because of certain drills...last year I just told myself I wasn't going to do it anymore. LOL. Yeah, that didn't work so well.

[Zeph]

Something you can try feeling is to have the shaft and arms form a straight line long after impact. Stop like Erik does on his video.

If you look at high speed videos of guys doing it right, the left arm and shaft will create a straight line after the ball. If you flip, this line will be farther back, most of the time behind the ball. The difference can be hard to notice if you're not looking, but it can make a huge difference in the power you hit the ball with.

I may be out on a limb here, but can it not be compared to driving a car? If your focus is 2 yards in front of the car, it is harder to keep the car going smooth. You'll jerk it more sidways, like beginners often do. If you look forward, as far as you can see, your mind will create a line you can drive on, which will be smoother.

Instead of focusing on the flying wedge before impact, focusing on it after impact can make a difference on what happens before impact. That's my theory at least.
A bit like looking in front of ball instead of right at it. Moving the swing bottom slightly forward and perhaps where the left arm and shaft form a straight line.

[nevets88]

Definitely start with the small shots. If you can't do little chips, how are you going to do full swings? Does that make sense?

[canadianpro]

Yup!

Start with the wedge....check video of Charles Howell III

[JackLee]

Here is what I posted about this in a previous thread:

Flipping is caused by an arm swing that gets ahead of your body movements. Learn to lead and power the swing with your body. You may want to do a search on Google for "body powered professional golf swing".

[iacas]

Here is what I posted about this in a previous thread:

That's all well and dandy but your arms NEED to get "ahead" of your body movements.

Your arms start the backswing on the right side of your chest and finish on the left side of your chest. They need to move themselves as well - they don't need to be dragged along solely by rotational forces.

[JackLee]

That's all well and dandy but your arms NEED to get "ahead" of your body movements.

"Your arms need to get ahead of your body movements." Only well after impact. Momentum!

[iacas]

"Your arms need to get ahead of your body movements." Only well after impact. Momentum!

No. Not after impact - the arms need to get farther ahead of the body than they were at impact AND will have loaded across the chest on the backswing, meaning they need to go a LOT farther relative to the body.

[Zeph]

Some pictures and graphics to demonstrate. Sitting on a crap computer without my usual software, so it's pretty simple.

First example we see a swing from birds-eye view. I've drawn lines to show the position of the hands relative to the shoulders through the swing.

Address: Can't see the hands, but somewhere around where I've drawn the lines.
Top of backswing: Left arm has crossed the chest, hands opposite back shoulder.
Halfway down: Shoulders have rotated 45-ish degrees, hands get even farther behind.
Impact: Shoulders have rotated past 0º, slightly open, hands are in front of the ball and closer to the front shoulder than the back.
Follow through: Shoulders rotated almost 90º open, left elbow fold, hands get closer to the front shoulder.

If the hands did not go faster and move a larger distance on the downswing than the shoulders, the hands would be opposite the back shoulder at impact.



A quick Paint graphic. No scientific stuff, the positions are not measured, just to demonstrate. The red eclipse and circle are the shoulders and hands at the top of the backswing, still from birds-eye view. Shoulders rotated 90º, hands opposite back shoulder. Green eclipse and circle show shoulders and hands at impact. As you can see, the hands have moved from opposite the back shoulder, to almost level with the front shoulder.



The reason for all of this is that the hands move off the chest on the backswing when the left arm cross the chest and right elbow fold. If we did not do this, but kept the hands opposite the shirt logo from address to impact, the shoulders and hands could have travelled at the same speed. But you would not have gotten a lot of power that way.

There are of course three dimensions and it's a matter of style how rotated the shoulders, hips, hands etc. are at the various positions. But nobody playing good golf does so without moving the hands off the chest on the backswing.