Padraig Harrington disqualified in Abu Dhabi

[jamo]

Originally Posted by 2bGood

Why not just bring the official over on every hole for every shot for a ruling so a phantom penalty can not be called in later - that would be GREAT for golf.

Yeah, because that's exactly what Fourputt was saying. C'mon man.

[pusher]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by pusher

It's just stupid.  What if the camera had not caught it?  It happened in a split second and in that moment Harrington was unaware he'd done anything wrong.  It's the equivalent of a TV viewer calling balls and strikes. Calls should be left to those on the course, not some schmo watching TV.

Here's the bottom line though, IMO: Of all the controversial calls in my recent memory (DJ in the bunker, Camillo with the divot, Paddy with the ball moving, Julie Inkster with the training aid), none would've been an issue if the player had simply a) known the rules, or b) called in an official to consult with. These people are professionals playing for ridiculous amounts of money - there is no reason for them not to know this stuff. If they had, they never would've been put in the situation of having a TV viewer or spectator making trouble for them.

Excellent point, however I still do not like the idea of viewers phoning in what they think are rules infractions.  It's ridiculous.  Leave it to the players and the officials on the course.  BTW, I don't like the use of instant replay in the NFL, nor the limited use of it in MLB.  Leave it up to the officials who are officiating the game.  I don't believe television was ever meant to be part of the game.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by 2bGood

The really dumb thing is if he had remarked his ball after the alleged movement there would have been no penalty.

Why do you think so? Had the ball moved and never returned to its original location there would have been a penalty of 2 strokes. Marking the ball in an incorrect place would not have changed anything.

[lonewolf]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave H

Let's just play this scenario out for a moment. Paddy is on the green and the ball oscillates. Just to be sure he calls the RO over.

RO: what happened?

PH: the ball oscillated when I picked up my marker.

RO: did the ball move back to it's original place?

PH: Yes.

RO: If the ball moved back to it's orignal spot, what's the issue?

PH: Well, actually I'm not 100%. I'm concerned that it may have moved 3 dimples but only rolled back 2 dimples. I have no way to tell, could we bring in an HD monitor and study it for a bit?

RO: Just put it back where it was and all is well.

PH: Well, I think it moved back to it's original spot. If I move it, it could be 2 dimples the other way.

RO: Either way, at this point you're screwed because everyone is now reviewing this and calling in but unfortunately we don't have a way for you to review this on the course. Just take a penalty and move on.

Sure, that's one scenario. I'm not sure what point you're making - are you saying the above is a bad thing? Paddy was careless in removing the marker, he couldn't tell if the ball moved back to the original spot, so he takes the penalty. It's his own fault the ball moved, he gets a penalty, and moves on, as you say. That's actually the worse case scenario and better than being DQ'd. What I think is more likely to happen is either there *is* video available which means he can move the ball back where it was with no penalty, or the RO says "it's good where it is, no penalty". Either way, the RO should've been consulted and if he had Paddy wouldn't have been DQ'd.

I'm with Dave H. on this.

After rules official answer is just leave it and play on.  Then FA on the couch notices the 1.5 dimple move and calls in.

Then what?  "Rules official told me to play on" say Paddy.  "Too bad" says another rulles official, "some FA phoned in and we noticed a1.5 dimple move that wasn't an oscillation."

Rules are rules, yes.  Call in a rules official, yes.  But, we really going to have players calling in rules officials for marking balls when it oscillates (um, I mean) moves 1.5 dimples?  What's goign to happen at teh British Open when it's windy as he11?  They better start trainng thousands of rules officials and get ready for 6hr. rounds.

[Ignorant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonewolf

I'm with Dave H. on this.

After rules official answer is just leave it and play on.  Then FA on the couch notices the 1.5 dimple move and calls in.

Then what?  "Rules official told me to play on" say Paddy.  "Too bad" says another rulles official, "some FA phoned in and we noticed a1.5 dimple move that wasn't an oscillation."

Even in such a case Paddy would have been off the hook. Once the RO would have stated that there was no evidence that the ball had moved Paddy could not have been penalized any longer. Referee's decision is final even though it is not correct (R34-2 and Dec 34-2/2).

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by 2bGood

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

My point was that if he called in a rules official, there would be no penalty in either case.  All he has to do is follow whatever the RO decides is correct and there is no penalty because the movement was a direct result of lifting the ball marker.

Heck, since it was a rule that required him to replace it without penalty, he'd have been ok if he'd simply picked it up and put it back, wouldn't he?  That makes it all the sillier.

The only problem is if he did that and then the video showed that he was right in the first place and the ball didn't actually move, then he'd have been guilty of moving the ball when it wasn't allowed, and the same end would have resulted.  Because of the the uncertainty of whether the ball moved or not, he still needed to bring a rules official into the case.  Then whatever the ruling, he is safe.

Why not just bring the official over on every hole for every shot for a ruling so a phantom penalty can not be called in later - that would be GREAT for golf.

I don't see it that way.  This is a particular case where he should have done so because he clearly saw his ball move.  Rather than making an assumption, he should have taken the time to make sure that he was in the right.  This was an admittedly rare situation.  When was the last time you saw a ball move when the player was lifting his marker?  For most shots it simply isn't necessary.  The only time they need to involve a rules official is when something out of the ordinary has happened.  A lot of players will call in an RO for just about any procedure (water hazard, obstruction, etc.) , even if they clearly know what to do, just for insurance.  These are all areas where they know the rules, but just don't want to take the chance of being second guessed.  Paddy should have done the same thing.

[mad max]

For those of you that haven't seen it here it is.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by mad max

For those of you that haven't seen it here it is.

I'm surprised one of his playing partners didn't speak up because this looks kind of clumsy in a sneaky and cheaty sort of way. Even though it's remotely possible that this "innocent mistake" was planned, and I'll probably get flamed for throwing it out there, I still think calling in is lame. Not on the part of the rulie who called (or texted, or tweeted - who really F'ing cares how it was done?!?), but that a professional sport can't get their collective shite together in real time.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Quote:

Originally Posted by mad max

For those of you that haven't seen it here it is.

I'm surprised one of his playing partners didn't speak up because this looks kind of clumsy in a sneaky and cheaty sort of way. Even though it's remotely possible that this "innocent mistake" was planned, and I'll probably get flamed for throwing it out there, I still think calling in is lame. Not on the part of the rulie who called (or texted, or tweeted - who really F'ing cares how it was done?!?), but that a professional sport can't get their collective shite together in real time.

This is what gets me.  If I'm playing in a tournament and I do something like he did, the first thing I'm going to do is tell my fellow competitors what happened, assuming that none of them was watching at the time.  I'm going to ask them if they think it moved and needs to be replaced or not.  If there is a rules official available I'll see that he's brought in.  If there is any doubt, I'll invoke rule 3-3 and play a second ball, so that one of them is guaranteed to be correct.  There were a lot of ways for Paddy to protect himself here and he didn't avail himself of any of them.  Not his brightest moment.

[lonewolf]

Originally Posted by mad max

For those of you that haven't seen it here it is.

Should have waited til I saw it before commenting.  Who knows what Paddy or his fellow competitors saw.  But, it was more than an oscillation.

However,  think we may be in store for some longer rounds with more (just in case) rulings.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This is what gets me.  If I'm playing in a tournament and I do something like he did, the first thing I'm going to do is tell my fellow competitors what happened, assuming that none of them was watching at the time.  I'm going to ask them if they think it moved and needs to be replaced or not.  If there is a rules official available I'll see that he's brought in.  If there is any doubt, I'll invoke rule 3-3 and play a second ball, so that one of them is guaranteed to be correct.  There were a lot of ways for Paddy to protect himself here and he didn't avail himself of any of them.  Not his brightest moment.

Harrington was in the broadcast booth for the Abu Dhabi tournament this morning. He was questioned at length by Renton Laidlaw about what occurred.  Harrington said that he was not aware that his ball had moved, so he didn't call in a rules official.  The aim line of the ball maintained its direction toward the hole, and he did not notice any movement.  That is why he played on and signed his card.  It was only after he had completed his round that the infraction was called in.

So what could he have done?  He didn't realize that ball had moved (assuming, and I do, that he was totally forthcoming) so he played the hole like he does every other hole.

In his defense, he did not complain or blame anyone about the incident.  In fact, he agreed with it.  Paraphrasing him, he said that if a tiny rules infraction is not penalized according to the rules, then what happens the next time when a ball moves an inch, or a foot?  All the player has to do is say that he didn't know the ball had moved.  It would be a slippery slope.

[zeg]

Thanks for posting the video.  That was a lot more movement than I'd been picturing, and not a chance that it was an oscillation.  The penalty was certainly justified.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

So what could he have done?  He didn't realize that ball had moved (assuming, and I do, that he was totally forthcoming) so he played the hole like he does every other hole.

In his defense, he did not complain or blame anyone about the incident.  In fact, he agreed with it.  Paraphrasing him, he said that if a tiny rules infraction is not penalized according to the rules, then what happens the next time when a ball moves an inch, or a foot?  All the player has to do is say that he didn't know the ball had moved.  It would be a slippery slope.

I'm inclined to take him at his word that he didn't see it, since it seems plausible enough.  What he could have done is be a little more careful---I'm sure he'll keep his eye on the ball when he picks up his marker next time.  What must have happened is he was distracted or something, because whether or not the movement was along his line, if he's watching that ball closely, he is going to see it move.  If he glances off as he leans up or is reading the line, I can see how he might not notice it if he doesn't happen to see it in motion.

Glad to hear he's taking the DQ in stride.  Sucks for him, but I think he'll see plenty more good rounds out there.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Harrington was in the broadcast booth for the Abu Dhabi tournament this morning. He was questioned at length by Renton Laidlaw about what occurred.  Harrington said that he was not aware that his ball had moved, so he didn't call in a rules official.  The aim line of the ball maintained its direction toward the hole, and he did not notice any movement.  That is why he played on and signed his card.  It was only after he had completed his round that the infraction was called in.

So what could he have done?  He didn't realize that ball had moved (assuming, and I do, that he was totally forthcoming) so he played the hole like he does every other hole.

You're misunderstanding what Paddy meant by "move". He didn't think the ball was in a different position, but he knew the ball oscillated. According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/golf/9369046.stm:

"I looked down and was pretty sure it had just oscillated and had not moved, so I continued on," said Harrington. At the end of the day that's good enough, but I wouldn't have done anything differently - there was nothing I could do about it at that moment in time. If I'd called a referee over it would have been pointless because if he'd asked me where my ball was I'd have said it was there. As far as I was concerned it didn't move."

Hence, it was an error on his part to not call an RO over. As has been explained in this thread, if he had done that there are no scenarios that could've resulted in a DQ for him.

[Lefty-Golfer]

having seen the video i am more convinced then ever the various tours need to put a rules official with every player and keep the game being played in real time.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Harrington was in the broadcast booth for the Abu Dhabi tournament this morning. He was questioned at length by Renton Laidlaw about what occurred.  Harrington said that he was not aware that his ball had moved, so he didn't call in a rules official.  The aim line of the ball maintained its direction toward the hole, and he did not notice any movement.  That is why he played on and signed his card.  It was only after he had completed his round that the infraction was called in.

So what could he have done?  He didn't realize that ball had moved (assuming, and I do, that he was totally forthcoming) so he played the hole like he does every other hole.

You're misunderstanding what Paddy meant by "move". He didn't think the ball was in a different position, but he knew the ball oscillated. According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/golf/9369046.stm:

"I looked down and was pretty sure it had just oscillated and had not moved, so I continued on," said Harrington. At the end of the day that's good enough, but I wouldn't have done anything differently - there was nothing I could do about it at that moment in time. If I'd called a referee over it would have been pointless because if he'd asked me where my ball was I'd have said it was there. As far as I was concerned it didn't move."

Hence, it was an error on his part to not call an RO over. As has been explained in this thread, if he had done that there are no scenarios that could've resulted in a DQ for him.

What would have changed?  In your scenario, he calls over an official, says the ball oscillated but didn't move.  The rules official, who didn't see it, would probably ask Harrington's playing partners, who didn't see it move either.  The official can't impose a penalty at that time, and would allow play to continue.  Then, hours later, Harrington would still be DQed by a call-in.

There is no replay official in the booth to consult video, like in football.

[jamo]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

What would have changed?  In your scenario, he calls over an official, says the ball oscillated but didn't move.  The rules official, who didn't see it, would probably ask Harrington's playing partners, who didn't see it move either.  The official can't impose a penalty at that time, and would allow play to continue.  Then, hours later, Harrington would still be DQed by a call-in.

There is no replay official in the booth to consult video, like in football.

No, but Harrington could have looked at the video after the round before he signed his card.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by jamo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmonious

What would have changed?  In your scenario, he calls over an official, says the ball oscillated but didn't move.  The rules official, who didn't see it, would probably ask Harrington's playing partners, who didn't see it move either.  The official can't impose a penalty at that time, and would allow play to continue.  Then, hours later, Harrington would still be DQed by a call-in.

There is no replay official in the booth to consult video, like in football.

No, but Harrington could have looked at the video after the round before he signed his card.

He could have done a lot of things, but why would he, considering he didn't feel it moved? He felt the ball was in the same position after it stopped oscillating. We can say what it looked like to us on video, in slow motion, in a pressure-free environment, but from his angle (he wasn't wearing a headcam) it may have looked like it didn't move.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

You're misunderstanding what Paddy meant by "move". He didn't think the ball was in a different position, but he knew the ball oscillated. According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/golf/9369046.stm:

"I looked down and was pretty sure it had just oscillated and had not moved, so I continued on," said Harrington. At the end of the day that's good enough, but I wouldn't have done anything differently - there was nothing I could do about it at that moment in time. If I'd called a referee over it would have been pointless because if he'd asked me where my ball was I'd have said it was there. As far as I was concerned it didn't move."

Hence, it was an error on his part to not call an RO over. As has been explained in this thread, if he had done that there are no scenarios that could've resulted in a DQ for him.

What would have changed?  In your scenario, he calls over an official, says the ball oscillated but didn't move.  The rules official, who didn't see it, would probably ask Harrington's playing partners, who didn't see it move either.  The official can't impose a penalty at that time, and would allow play to continue.  Then, hours later, Harrington would still be DQed by a call-in.

No he wouldn't because right or wrong, the on course rules official's ruling is final.  If this was presented to me, I'd have been on my radio to the CRO, explained that the only witness was the player and asked for his help too.  If the official (or the committee)  is later found to be wrong, either because of his own mistake or because of additional information becoming available, the player is still exonerated because he used every resource available to him before proceeding.  That is why the rules officials are there... as a resource, not as a cop or a referee.

Paddy also had another option open to him.  He could have invoked Rule 3-3 and played a second ball, one as the ball lay and one with the ball "replaced" and presented his case to the committee after the round, but before he returned his card.  That would also have guaranteed that he received no penalty.