Brandel Chamblee Is the Biggest Tiger Hater

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

What I'm saying is that Tiger's C at Augusta is the equivalent of most qualifier's B+ game and his B game is as good or better than all but the top player's A+ game.

Augusta is to Tiger what Turnberry is to Tom Watson - comfort food. Tiger played fantastic at Augusta and he re-injured his knee. There's really not much more to say about Augusta (for me anyway) than that.

I'm just trying to understand your view on Augusta. It seems to me like you're saying that competing at Augusta is easier for Tiger than almost anyone else in the field, therefore, how he performs there is not a barometer for where his game might be. If that is the case, it begs the question about someone like Nicklaus who won 6 there, or Palmer who won 4 there or Phil who has what 3 there? I just can't wrap my head around the notion that one of the most reveered, if not the most respected major in golf is somehow "easy" for any player to win, much less Tiger. I doubt if you were to ask he, Phil, Jack, or Arnold, they'd all say each win there was earned and not given nor easy.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

And once again, the media did NOT make Tiger. Tiger made Tiger. His team made Tiger. The media BOUGHT IT, hook, line, and sinker and ran with it. THEY didn't do their due diligence. That's THEIR fault. Tiger was and is who he was and is. The fact he fooled them is what aggravates them and all those who believed in all of the hype of his personal life. It's why I always say that pro athletes are NOT EVER role models. They are MADE so by parents who want someone to blame for how THEIR children turn out. example: My kid is cussing and throwing clubs on the golf course. Must be Tiger's fault cause he does it, they see it, and mimick it! WRONG!!! It's YOUR fault parents for NOT teaching your children the proper way to conduct themselves and holding them accountable for their actions.

Should Tiger and others in his position try to set a better example? Yes. But ultimately it is up to us as parents to lead and guide our children not Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson ,or any other athlete.

As for the media, they don't make stars in this game. A player either has the talent to compete and win, or they don't. And if they win like a Phil or Tiger, they are going to get the bulk of media attention. Conversely, the guy who finishes 108th on the money list, never wins, rarely tweaks the interest of the media. Why? He doesn't win. The media NEED the players. The players don't NEED the media. As Tiger has proven.

Your right, the media had nothing to do with it. They didn't do their due diligence?  What when he was in his teens? His team, (i.e. Earl, IMG, Nike et.al.) made Tiger the brand. The media bought it and so did the public. Somehow I even think Tiger bought it.  He was made out to be bigger than a golf star and it only led to an epic fall when it was discovered that he was less than perfect. Now, he is paying the price of his actions. If you benefit from the media attention and seek to exploit it you better be ready for the other side when things don't go your way and now you can't control it.

I think that your last paragraph is slightly misguided. Tiger may not need the media (especially now), but Team Tiger does. They had a world brand that was tarnished resulting in lost revenue that went way beyond golf.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Your right, the media had nothing to do with it.  They didn't do their due diligence?  What when he was in his teens? His team, (i.e. Earl, IMG, Nike et.al.) made Tiger the brand. The media bought it and so did the public. Somehow I even think Tiger bought it.  He was made out to be bigger than a golf star and it only led to an epic fall when it was discovered that he was less than perfect. Now, he is paying the price of his actions. If you benefit from the media attention and seek to exploit it you better be ready for the other side when things don't go your way and now you can't control it.

I think that your last paragraph is slightly misguided. Tiger may not need the media (especially now), but Team Tiger does. They had a world brand that was tarnished resulting in lost revenue that went way beyond golf.

Who EVER said he was perfect? I'll wait for your response on that part. With me what you'll find is I prefer facts to hyperbole, and just plain lies. I don't care for people who spread lies as truth and bash anyone who challenges their lies. As for Tiger being bigger than golf, who EVER said that? I certainly never did. Nor did anyone I've ever come into contact with over the years. Did he in some ways transcend the game at certain moments? Perhaps. Bigger than the game? Nope!  How did Tiger benefit from the media if they had a contentious relationship with him and he was uncooperative with them? It seems to me that both aren't possible. You can't be difficult and uncooperative with the media and yet benefit from their support if you aren't actually cooperating with them right? Either he didn't cooperate and they had a contentious relationship, or they had a great relationship that he directly benefitted from. Tell me something. Which golf writer was responsible for landing his deal with Titleis, then Nike? Or how about Tag Hauer. Or GM? Or American Express? Certainly if Tiger benefitted from the media, they must have had something to do with his getting one or more of these deals right? I mean when these companies did their due diligence on Tiger, I'm sure they went straight to the media reports and relied only on their reporting to ink their deals with Tiger right?  See how ridiculous that all sounds? It's why I keep saying to you that the media did NOT make Tiger, but that Tiger and yes, "his people" made him. They might have USED the media to get their message out, but the media itself did not MAKE Tiger. Never have, never will. As for bringing him down, again, all Tiger. HE did it to himself, and not the media.

[jamo]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

Who EVER said he was perfect? I'll wait for your response on that part.

I haven't read much of this conversation, but there are a lot of people who, in his prime, had anointed Tiger as a god. We were told that he led a life worth emulating, that to raise a champion golfer you needed to follow Earl's lead, and that Tiger had the perfect family. Plenty of people said he was perfect.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by jamo

I haven't read much of this conversation, but there are a lot of people who, in his prime, had anointed Tiger as a god. We were told that he led a life worth emulating, that to raise a champion golfer you needed to follow Earl's lead, and that Tiger had the perfect family. Plenty of people said he was perfect.

And who were those people who said Tiger as a god or had the perfect family? Oops, THE MEDIA!!!!  And you guys BOUGHT IT!!!! It's the media YOU GUYS are mad at not Tiger. Tiger suckered you, the rest of the suckers out there, and the media. This is EXACTLY why I will continue to say that pro athletes are NOT role models. The media TELLS YOU, and you guys believe it. Stop believing everything you're reading from the media. The media is not your friend, nor do they care if what they print is actually true. They are merely making sure they keep their jobs by providing stories, be they true, slightly skewed, or outright lies. After years of watching the media be manipulated by politicians and in some cases even carrying the water for politicians, I've learned to not trust, but verify.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

Who EVER said he was perfect? I'll wait for your response on that part. With me what you'll find is I prefer facts to hyperbole, and just plain lies. I don't care for people who spread lies as truth and bash anyone who challenges their lies. As for Tiger being bigger than golf, who EVER said that? I certainly never did. Nor did anyone I've ever come into contact with over the years. Did he in some ways transcend the game at certain moments? Perhaps. Bigger than the game? Nope!  How did Tiger benefit from the media if they had a contentious relationship with him and he was uncooperative with them? It seems to me that both aren't possible. You can't be difficult and uncooperative with the media and yet benefit from their support if you aren't actually cooperating with them right? Either he didn't cooperate and they had a contentious relationship, or they had a great relationship that he directly benefitted from. Tell me something. Which golf writer was responsible for landing his deal with Titleis, then Nike? Or how about Tag Hauer. Or GM? Or American Express? Certainly if Tiger benefitted from the media, they must have had something to do with his getting one or more of these deals right? I mean when these companies did their due diligence on Tiger, I'm sure they went straight to the media reports and relied only on their reporting to ink their deals with Tiger right?  See how ridiculous that all sounds? It's why I keep saying to you that the media did NOT make Tiger, but that Tiger and yes, "his people" made him. They might have USED the media to get their message out, but the media itself did not MAKE Tiger. Never have, never will. As for bringing him down, again, all Tiger. HE did it to himself, and not the media.

Seriously, this is getting old and every post is not about you. "Less than perfect", is a euphemism that obviously doesn't mean he was ever perfect, but a polite way to say that he was far from it in his actions.  As far as how celebrities and sports personalities use the media, they do play upon it when it is positive and then cringe and criticize it when it is negative. If you are in the spotlight, you are in the spotlight for the good, bad, and ugly.  Tiger brought himself down for sure, but the media made sure that he would not ever forget it. As far as Tiger being larger than golf, again it may be exaggerated in the literal sense, but in a way he was. He soon became the face of not only golf, but Nike, Gatorade, Gillette, Tag, etc. The Madison Avenue executives helped to feed the Tiger Brand worldwide and the media followed suit. Tiger was bigger than Michael Jordan, so in that sense, he was more than a golfer who won 14 majors. Was he actually bigger than the game in its entirety, of course not, but I don't think anyone else really took it the way you chose to do so.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

And who were those people who said Tiger as a god or had the perfect family? Oops, THE MEDIA!!!!  And you guys BOUGHT IT!!!! It's the media YOU GUYS are mad at not Tiger. Tiger suckered you, the rest of the suckers out there, and the media. This is EXACTLY why I will continue to say that pro athletes are NOT role models. The media TELLS YOU, and you guys believe it. Stop believing everything you're reading from the media. The media is not your friend, nor do they care if what they print is actually true. They are merely making sure they keep their jobs by providing stories, be they true, slightly skewed, or outright lies. After years of watching the media be manipulated by politicians and in some cases even carrying the water for politicians, I've learned to not trust, but verify.

WOW!  I leave here for an hour or two and I swear I am witnessing a heart attack coming for you, Hennie.  Relax, man.  You are starting to sound like Peter Finch in Network (I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!!!).

As more fodder for you, I advise you to check the Orlando Sentinel website.  The local sports writer openly questions whether Tiger's current downfall with performance is less due to Sean Foley and more to do with the indictment of Dr. Galea, the notorious doctor feelgood from Canada.  You recall that Tiger brought him down here to help him recuperate from surgery.  And, as you well know, the doctor has also been suspected of providing HGH and other very questionable and perhaps illegal techniques (blood spinning, anyone?) to athletes.  Coincidence that Tiger is having a hard time recovering now that the doctor doesn't offer his services anymore?  Who knows?

There you go.  Continue the rants...

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Seriously, this is getting old and every post is not about you. "Less than perfect", is a euphemism that obviously doesn't mean he was ever perfect, but a polite way to say that he was far from it in his actions.  As far as how celebrities and sports personalities use the media, they do play upon it when it is positive and then cringe and criticize it when it is negative. If you are in the spotlight, you are in the spotlight for the good, bad, and ugly.  Tiger brought himself down for sure, but the media made sure that he would not ever forget it. As far as Tiger being larger than golf, again it may be exaggerated in the literal sense, but in a way he was. He soon became the face of not only golf, but Nike, Gatorade, Gillette, Tag, etc. The Madison Avenue executives helped to feed the Tiger Brand worldwide and the media followed suit. Tiger was bigger than Michael Jordan, so in that sense, he was more than a golfer who won 14 majors. Was he actually bigger than the game in its entirety, of course not, but I don't think anyone else really took it the way you chose to do so.

Then people shouldn't use words like 'god' or 'perfect' if it's not what they mean. Words have an impact. Words mean things. When someone says "people saw Tiger as a god." Well what the heck is anyone supposed to think except that someone or several out there in the media were making references to him as such. If not, then people shouldn't make the statements that he was referred to that way. If people in the media were saying that Tiger had the perfect family life, but that's not what they REALLY meant, then they should never have made such statements. It's not my fault or Tiger's fault if they made erroneous or untrue statements that were not based in fact.

Again, it sounds to me like guys like you are upset that the media didn't do their homework, didn't expose Tiger for what he really was,  and that you guys bought into the hype of this 'perfect family life' issue.

It didn't upset me a bit. Surprise me? Yes. Because I tend to think the best in people not the worst. But then, I'm not in the media so it's not my job to report the TRUTH instead of the melancholy about alleged heroes of sport.

Again, your issue is with the media, not me.

[jamo]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

And who were those people who said Tiger as a god or had the perfect family? Oops, THE MEDIA!!!!  And you guys BOUGHT IT!!!! It's the media YOU GUYS are mad at not Tiger. Tiger suckered you, the rest of the suckers out there, and the media. This is EXACTLY why I will continue to say that pro athletes are NOT role models. The media TELLS YOU, and you guys believe it. Stop believing everything you're reading from the media. The media is not your friend, nor do they care if what they print is actually true. They are merely making sure they keep their jobs by providing stories, be they true, slightly skewed, or outright lies. After years of watching the media be manipulated by politicians and in some cases even carrying the water for politicians, I've learned to not trust, but verify.

Please stop saying "YOU" "YOU" "YOU" if you're quoting me. I never said any of those things. I said, specifically, "there are a lot of people who, in his prime, had anointed Tiger as a god." I said "We were told..." And I said "Plenty of people said he was perfect." Athletes make crappy role models, and the media builds them up as such. However, at one point those beliefs weren't only held in the media, and weren't only media-driven. I was never one of those people who thought he could do no wrong, but I did admire him as a golfer. There were/are plenty of better people in the world to look up than than a pro golfer.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

WOW!  I leave here for an hour or two and I swear I am witnessing a heart attack coming for you, Hennie.  Relax, man.  You are starting to sound like Peter Finch in Network (I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!!!).

As more fodder for you, I advise you to check the Orlando Sentinel website.  The local sports writer openly questions whether Tiger's current downfall with performance is less due to Sean Foley and more to do with the indictment of Dr. Galea, the notorious doctor feelgood from Canada.  You recall that Tiger brought him down here to help him recuperate from surgery.  And, as you well know, the doctor has also been suspected of providing HGH and other very questionable and perhaps illegal techniques (blood spinning, anyone?) to athletes.  Coincidence that Tiger is having a hard time recovering now that the doctor doesn't offer his services anymore?  Who knows?

There you go.  Continue the rants...

Heart attack? Me? Hardly. I'm laid up recovering from hernia (2 of them) surgery yesterday. I don't care what people say so long as it's the truth. I take issue with people who spread lies and innuendo as truth. Just like the Dr. Galea thing. Maybe it's true. But until it's proven to BE true, it's not. Maybe Tiger has been doping for 10 years or more. If he has, he's done so under the watchful eye of Tim Finchem and The PGA Tour to include their vaunted drug testing. So if true, then look no further than the holier than thou set running The PGA Tour who claim to stand for a gentleman's game, and spirit of the rules and all.

LOL

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

I'm just trying to understand your view on Augusta. It seems to me like you're saying that competing at Augusta is easier for Tiger than almost anyone else in the field, therefore, how he performs there is not a barometer for where his game might be. If that is the case, it begs the question about someone like Nicklaus who won 6 there, or Palmer who won 4 there or Phil who has what 3 there? I just can't wrap my head around the notion that one of the most reveered, if not the most respected major in golf is somehow "easy" for any player to win, much less Tiger. I doubt if you were to ask he, Phil, Jack, or Arnold, they'd all say each win there was earned and not given nor easy.

I suspect you're pretending you don't understand because you have nothing to dispute it. Either way, you've had nothing new to add for your last 50+ posts, so I'm done with this crap.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I suspect you're pretending you don't understand because you have nothing to dispute it. Either way, you've had nothing new to add for your last 50+ posts, so I'm done with this crap.

You haven't provided anything that needs to be disputed. You've made a CLAIM that winning at Augusta for Tiger is easier than it is for most other pro golfers. You've yet to actually PROVE that, but you did opine that.  So there's nothing for me to disprove as you're yet to PROVE what YOU said. I'm telling you that if you were to ask Tiger, Jack, or Arnold if winning The Masters was every easy, that they'd disagree. So, when you've gotten THOSE answers from THOSE players, then we can talk. Until then, you're right. Nothing new to report.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

You haven't provided anything that needs to be disputed. You've made a CLAIM that winning at Augusta for Tiger is easier than it is for most other pro golfers. You've yet to actually PROVE that, but you did opine that.  So there's nothing for me to disprove as you're yet to PROVE what YOU said. I'm telling you that if you were to ask Tiger, Jack, or Arnold if winning The Masters was every easy, that they'd disagree. So, when you've gotten THOSE answers from THOSE players, then we can talk. Until then, you're right. Nothing new to report.

I promised myself I wouldn't respond to you anymore because you've been trolling on this one topic since you signed up. You are a one-topic (i.e. Tiger fanboy) troll and I'm disgusted with myself I actually engaged in this "discussion" as long as I did.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I promised myself I wouldn't respond to you anymore because you've been trolling on this one topic since you signed up. You are a one-topic (i.e. Tiger fanboy) troll and I'm disgusted with myself I actually engaged in this "discussion" as long as I did.

So once again you level an accusation you can't prove and now because I've proven you wrong on your issue, you are taking it personally and you have decided that name-calling is the way to handle your frustration.

How sad for you.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

You haven't provided anything that needs to be disputed. You've made a CLAIM that winning at Augusta for Tiger is easier than it is for most other pro golfers. You've yet to actually PROVE that, but you did opine that.  So there's nothing for me to disprove as you're yet to PROVE what YOU said. I'm telling you that if you were to ask Tiger, Jack, or Arnold if winning The Masters was every easy, that they'd disagree. So, when you've gotten THOSE answers from THOSE players, then we can talk. Until then, you're right. Nothing new to report.

If you are telling him then why should he ask? How would you know what they would say?  Why does he have to get answers from anyone for you to talk? Is that a threat or a promise?

This is serious

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I promised myself I wouldn't respond to you anymore because you've been trolling on this one topic since you signed up. You are a one-topic (i.e. Tiger fanboy) troll and I'm disgusted with myself I actually engaged in this "discussion" as long as I did.

You are in good company there Sean. LOL.  I'm done.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

If you are telling him then why should he ask? How would you know what they would say?  Why does he have to get answers from anyone for you to talk?

This is serious

I didn't make some silly claim like he did about Tiger and The Masters. If he feels he's right, let him back it up with facts.

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by franky21

Is it me or does Brandel always have something negative to say about Tiger even when he plays well which hasnt happend often as of late. It just upsets me  because i mean the guy is struggling but you cant take away what he has done and to think he is done is ridiculous.

I read a lot of the 6 pages of comments here and thought I would add my 2 cents to your original comment.  I don't think Brandel is a Tiger hater or doesn't give Tiger credit for what he has done. I think what I heard him say was correct and was his honest opinion. Just think about all the things Tiger is trying to deal with right now, just the things we know of.  You can't have such a public fall from grace and lose your family without it leaving an impact on your mind and heart.  Tiger needs to come to peace with his off the course failures and his present situation before he can ever be great again.  Even we Bogie golfers know the game is a lot between the ears.  Next it is clear he is not physically able to play right now at a level we all would like to see him return to.  I don't think he ever will either until he reduces his upper body bulk (like Barndel said).  If you have ever had a serious knee injury, or just got old with arthritis like me, one of the best things you can do to relieve the pain and reduce the possibility of injury,  is to lose unneeded weight. Brandel is correct, the golf club weighs 11 oz., you don't need to be able to press 300 lbs to swing it so why should Tiger have bulked up to 195 pounds (against his doctors advice I understand).  He can't hit the ball any further today than when he was an amateur at 155 pounds.  Bulking up might make sense for the NFL but not for the PGA and certainly not for Tiger with his knee problems.

I don't think anyone questions that Tiger was for 10 or so years the world's best golfer by a significant margin.  His record speaks for itself.  But to my way of thinking Brandel is correct that Tiger needs to take some time off and get his head, heart, body and swing back in shape.  He probably can't really fix any of those things while playing in competition and in the limelight of the media and guys like us.  Sometimes you just have to go off in the desert and get back in touch with yourself and what you think is important to you, that is where I think Tiger is in his life.  He needs to take some time off and get straight with himself.  I hope he does.

You know sometimes the people that care about you are the only ones that will tell you the truth (at least the truth as they see it), even when they know you don't want to hear it.  I believe Bradel was giving Tiger what was his best assessment of the present state of Tiger's situation.  Anyway I'm looking forward to his article on the subject (if indeed that post was Brandel).