Fading / Draw at will with irons

[dkinser86]

Thanks guys!  I'm kinda in the same situation has the OP.  I'm a decent player, average in the mid 80s, but would really like to learn to shape shots.  In reading this I've got a basic checklist to go over.

Aim clubface where you want the ball to end up.

Set body lines on the line you want the ball to start.

Swing Normal.

Does this pretty much sum it up?  Is there anything special that needs to be done or focused with the swing.  (I'm sure its gonna be different for everyone, just wondering what some people focus on)  Also, no one has mentioned ball position.  Is there anything different that needs to be done in terms of ball position to hit a fade or a draw?

[RayG]

Thanks for not saying it's "wrong"! Because then I would have asked: "Why does it work for me?" :-) And it probably has a LOT to do with feel as well. I read that in one of those Nicklaus illustrated paperbacks of the 70's and started trying it shortly after and it worked... kinda. It wasn't until I improved and had a fairly consistent swing that it started to work with regularity. Of course, I tried to learn to hit the ball in the fairway instead of just learning how to get out of trouble. But it's nice to know I can use it if I need it. But anyway- Someone asked about why the grip should be aligned with your stance and NOT the clubface. Well- the body's tendency is to return the grip to a neutral state. So, if you JUST open or close the clubface, as you swing through your hands will tend to try and square up the face. All this will do is rocket the ball along you swing path and fly straight. I've found that adjusting the grip to my feet alignment, I can take a normal swing and if my hands "square up" correctly, it will create the side spin I'm looking for. But one key is not to overswing- a slash at the ball will usually overdo what effect you're looking for.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by RayG

Thanks for not saying it's "wrong"! Because then I would have asked: "Why does it work for me?" And it probably has a LOT to do with feel as well. I read that in one of those Nicklaus illustrated paperbacks of the 70's and started trying it shortly after and it worked... kinda. It wasn't until I improved and had a fairly consistent swing that it started to work with regularity. Of course, I tried to learn to hit the ball in the fairway instead of just learning how to get out of trouble. But it's nice to know I can use it if I need it.

But anyway- Someone asked about why the grip should be aligned with your stance and NOT the clubface. Well- the body's tendency is to return the grip to a neutral state. So, if you JUST open or close the clubface, as you swing through your hands will tend to try and square up the face. All this will do is rocket the ball along you swing path and fly straight. I've found that adjusting the grip to my feet alignment, I can take a normal swing and if my hands "square up" correctly, it will create the side spin I'm looking for. But one key is not to overswing- a slash at the ball will usually overdo what effect you're looking for.

I know how to work the ball for a recovery shot or to try and prevent going left or right, based on the swing path and club face angle relationship, but for a gentle draw or fade from a good lie, my preference (preferred shot shape) seems to depend on the day and to some extent on the irons I have in the bag that day.

After a couple shots I have a good sense of what my preferred shot shape will be for the day (most likely with the 3-5 irons and others may experience something completely different). Either way, I always try to set up with everything square to the initial target (i.e. parallel to the initial target). The main changed from day to day is my swingpath, and as that varies so does the club face angle at impact. There are days when my ball flght is almost perfectly straight, but my most consistent rounds are when I hit a slight fade with the long irons, straight mid irons (6-8) and a very slight draw with the short irons and wedges. To someone else the ball might not seem to be moving, but from my viewpoint (that's rhetorical - please to not stand on someone's target line unless they ask you too - it's very annoying) the ball does move a little bit. It's more of a feeling of movement, moreso in one direction than the other, if at all. Confusing, eh?

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by SESHONE

hitting a draw produces more distance so if u aim a little right it will still end up going straight but further!

......

[Jay-Bird]

Quote:

I don't see much of an advantage of shaping your irons.  I think it would be best to set up consistantly and try to hit the same shot.  If the pin is opossite your normal shot, just shoot for the center of the green.  It is hard enough to hit greens with one shot.

It's far easier to hit the middle of the green with a shaped shot if the course has any design/challenge in its layout.

scenario:

Water short of the green and all along the right side...

You would rather try to fly over the water and bunker to a green vs fade a ball in - the fade will be flying over land for the final part of the flight, avoiding the water and bunker completely.

scenario:

Par 5. Trouble RIGHT off the tee. The fairway doglegs at 235 - to the LEFT. You can hit your 4 wood straight safely, and still be 295 out. I will draw a driver around the dogleg and get on in two.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Jay-Bird

It's far easier to hit the middle of the green with a shaped shot if the course has any design/challenge in its layout.

I buy this, but it's more important to be able to hit the green in the first place.  Until one can hit a single consistent shot to a target reliably, worrying about trying to hit particular shapes is probably counterproductive.  Sure, maybe sometimes your shape won't fit the layout, but that shouldn't ever cost you more than one stroke to lay up around a dog leg.  Trying and failing to pull off a draw or fade and winding up in the woods will easily cost you more than that.

That said, my mostly unsubstantiated belief is that practicing shaped shots on the range before you intend to use them can help establish your stock shape.  Plus, I'll confess that it is fun to try shots you have no business trying from time to time... I nearly faded a 3W around a tree and onto the green last week, just caught it a bit on the toe and came up about 10 yards short.  In that case, though, I was playing to enhance my usual natural fade with the club rather than to fight it into a draw.

[Ernest Jones]

Ok my turn for a n00b question:

Everyone seems to advise the player to open or close the club face to the degree you wish the ball to curve and THEN to align yourself farther "outside" that line to produce the actual spin.

But if I set my face the way I want and then align my stance it feels like I need to re-align the face as it has moved with my alignment change. Would it make just as much sense to do things in reverse order? What I mean is, can I align my stance/toe line say 20* to the right of the actual target and then close my clubface 10* relative to that line (making it split the difference between the actual target line and the the intended clubpath) and the ball should start out slightly more than 10* right of target and curve the remaining 10* into the intended target?

Hope that isn't incomprehensible, shaping the ball is quite obviously not yet within my mental grasp! Anyway I don't really need to shape the ball at this point but I would like to understand the concept properly as I'm mostly self coached and not understanding cause/effect is possibly hampering that.

[Ernest Jones]

PS I do fully understand A: the need to grip the club relative to your stance and not your face B: that the face should not aim at the target but rather at the line the ball should start on.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Ok my turn for a n00b question:

Everyone seems to advise the player to open or close the club face to the degree you wish the ball to curve and THEN to align yourself farther "outside" that line to produce the actual spin.

But if I set my face the way I want and then align my stance it feels like I need to re-align the face as it has moved with my alignment change. Would it make just as much sense to do things in reverse order? What I mean is, can I align my stance/toe line say 20* to the right of the actual target and then close my clubface 10* relative to that line (making it split the difference between the actual target line and the the intended clubpath) and the ball should start out slightly more than 10* right of target and curve the remaining 10* into the intended target?

Hope that isn't incomprehensible, shaping the ball is quite obviously not yet within my mental grasp! Anyway I don't really need to shape the ball at this point but I would like to understand the concept properly as I'm mostly self coached and not understanding cause/effect is possibly hampering that.

Not sure I'd go to the extremes you have in your example unless it's for a specific recovery shot, but it really shouldn't matter what you set each angle during setup. If you find setting your feet first, then clubface (or vise versa) is more natural, do it. It's all in the contact any way. The harder you swing and the more glancing the contact the greater the spin (all spin) so you really just need to experiment. Do it off the tee on wide par 4s, or on a layup on a par 5, if you want to work up the courage to do it when it counts.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Not sure I'd go to the extremes you have in your example unless it's for a specific recovery shot, but it really shouldn't matter what you set each angle during setup. If you find setting your feet first, then clubface (or vise versa) is more natural, do it. It's all in the contact any way. The harder you swing and the more glancing the contact the greater the spin (all spin) so you really just need to experiment. Do it off the tee on wide par 4s, or on a layup on a par 5, if you want to work up the courage to do it when it counts.

the 20* and 10* were just nice big fat numbers to base my example on, really just trying to figure out the process and what my approach would be to executing this type of shot. Thanks for the response though, confirms what was spinning around in my head. Shotshaping gives me a mild headache because I'm thinking WAY too much and probably giving my body all kinds of conflicting instructions on a subconscious level.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by zeg

I buy this, but it's more important to be able to hit the green in the first place.  Until one can hit a single consistent shot to a target reliably, worrying about trying to hit particular shapes is probably counterproductive.  Sure, maybe sometimes your shape won't fit the layout, but that shouldn't ever cost you more than one stroke to lay up around a dog leg.  Trying and failing to pull off a draw or fade and winding up in the woods will easily cost you more than that.

That said, my mostly unsubstantiated belief is that practicing shaped shots on the range before you intend to use them can help establish your stock shape.  Plus, I'll confess that it is fun to try shots you have no business trying from time to time... I nearly faded a 3W around a tree and onto the green last week, just caught it a bit on the toe and came up about 10 yards short.  In that case, though, I was playing to enhance my usual natural fade with the club rather than to fight it into a draw.

I totally agree with this.  I'm not even that high a handicap.  My number to the left may be too old.  I average mid-80s on courses that rate above to well above 113, with many rounds in the low 80s and I've broken 80 twice.  But I still never ever try to shape a shot into a green where I have an open look, even if there's water or bunkers protecting only one side of the green.

When I can hit the green a very high percentage of the time when I have a good lie and open look with 6i or higher, then I'll try to start bringing the shaped shots onto the course from the range.  I'd especially like to be able to draw my driver without a huge risk of a nasty duck hook.  My normal driver shape is a slight fade, and I can open my stance a bit extra and increase the fade if I have a dog-leg right, but with a dog-leg left where a straight driver will go over the fairway I'm still stuck clubbing down.

My point really is just that shaping a ball into the green is a way to try to increase your chances of having an easier birdie putt, or decrease your chances of being in a hazard or tough chipping area, but for me right now, trying to shape an iron into the green does nothing except decrease the chance that I have ANY birdie putt!

[Sai-Jin]

I just came back from the course and whenever I tried the open stance to fade with the driver, I end up hitting it straight then right, rather than the ball going left then right.

I haven't tried it with irons yet, but it seems easier to shape balls with the driver?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Sai-Jin

I just came back from the course and whenever I tried the open stance to fade with the driver, I end up hitting it straight then right, rather than the ball going left then right.

I haven't tried it with irons yet, but it seems easier to shape balls with the driver?

That's my experience, too, and it makes sense.  The same "bug" that leads to nasty hooks or slices with the driver is a "feature" for someone who can control it: the higher club-head speed of the driver will produce more spin.

[Sai-Jin]

Hmm... but it's supposed to go left to right, isn't it?

I wonder if it's because my my face is squared at address even though my stance is open?

Perhaps I should have slightly closed club face with the open stance to make the face aim left?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Sai-Jin

Hmm... but it's supposed to go left to right, isn't it?

I wonder if it's because my my face is squared at address even though my stance is open?

Perhaps I should have slightly closed club face with the open stance to make the face aim left?

Sorry, I didn't read your post closely enough, I thought you were just saying that shaping the shots seemed easier.

I think your diagnosis is correct: you are squaring the club head to your target, which means open to your stance.  Your swing direction is apparently along your stance, as it should be, so you get the fade spin.  You need to have your face slightly closed to the intended target, but slightly open to your stance.

Not sure why this would seem different between irons and driver, except that the driver is, in general, harder to control.

[Sai-Jin]

Interesting, I never knew it's supposed to be slightly open to the open stance, but still slightly closed from the target line.

I'll try this tomorrow. But again though, it seems a lot easier to do these shape shots with driver than with irons.

Funny thing is... I hit a fade shot almost any day with my 56* and 60* wedgies 0.o

[zeg]

Yep.  There's a good image showing what you want here: http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/34949/clear-up-new-ball-flight-laws-for-me#post_448554