Reverse Pivot and Sean Foley on weight distribution. Is this correct?

[chris_284]

I saw this video on the side of YouTube the other day and decided to click on it. I realized, what he is doing in this video, is exactly what I was doing at the start of this season (4 weeks ago).

However, I took a lesson and the instructor told me I had a reverse weight shift / reverse pivot. I don't know if I misinterpreted his instruction or he gave me the wrong instruction but I am now doing more of what Sean mentions at 0:33-0:37.

What is correct here?

[Zeph]

First to clear up a definition.

Reverse Pivot - The weight moves back from the top of the backswing. Most often a matter of hips or head moving back on the downswing. Could be a result of the weight moving too much forward on the backswing.

It's important to be clear about this. What Sean demonstrates is keeping the weight pretty much centered or slightly forward (it will feel very forward if you've never done it before), and then moving it even farther forward on the downswing. We are talking about the hips and knees here, the head should not move forward.

The common alternative is to move the weight back and then forward again on the downswing. What many struggle with here is the rate and distance. They move too much back, too much forward, too little forward or something like that. Staying centered means there are less moving parts.

I recommend staying centered. It's worked for me, and I believe it is an easier way to play golf, without losing distance. So yes, what Sean Foley explains is spot on. Exactly what you do is impossible to tell without seeing a video. I know there are different skill levels of instructors out there, so I won't take his word on your reverse pivot, but it is definitely possible. If you want help from us, I suggest you get your video on tape .

[broombroom]

That video isnt very good I wouldnt recommend it. I know im not a pro but from the way ive been taught by my pro for a long time about this; this is half wrong at least. I always had a reverse pivot problem for a while and even ****** my back up because of it.

A reverse pivot is when you get your weight distrubtion the wrong way around.  i.e. your weight is supposed to be on the right side on the backswing and transfered on to the left side 80 20ish at impact/follow through as he says.  The reverse pivot is when you do the opposite i.e. on your backswing you keep your weight on the left then on the through swing it goes to the right so you are like in a reverse c position often scooping up at the ball and your back is low and dropped and arched behind the ball.  It hurts after a while so I dont recommend doing it.

What I dont like about that video is that he said it should stay on the left side during the backswing which will promote the reverse c and maybe even a sort of hitting at the ball action.  Whereas your weight should really be on the right side on your backswing, not by much, about 60 40, nowhere near what he was on about thats lateral movement, and then it transfers over to the left through impact which makes it so much easier to accelerate through the ball.

The easiest way to do this is at address just keep a bit of weight behind the ball and thats it just keep it there for the backswing then as your downswing starts from the legs up the weight shift begins transfering it to the right where your spine angle will be much better and painless at impact.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Zeph

It's important to be clear about this. What Sean demonstrates is keeping the weight pretty much centered or slightly forward (it will feel very forward if you've never done it before), and then moving it even farther forward on the downswing. We are talking about the hips and knees here, the head should not move forward.

Exactly. "Centered, then forward."

A reverse pivot is "forward, then backward."

Originally Posted by broombroom

That video isnt very good I wouldnt recommend it. I know im not a pro but from the way ive been taught by my pro for a long time about this; this is half wrong at least. I always had a reverse pivot problem for a while and even fucked my back up because of it.

We're going to have to disagree on this one. :-) You may have had an actual reverse pivot, we don't know. Maybe your weight went forward and you hit with your weight on your back foot. Sean's asking golfers to keep their weight centered, then push it forward. Very different than what you were likely doing.

Originally Posted by broombroom

A reverse pivot is when you get your weight distrubtion the wrong way around.  i.e. your weight is supposed to be on the right side on the backswing and transfered on to the left side 80 20ish at impact/follow through as he says.

It doesn't have to be, no... and I wouldn't say it's "supposed" to be either.

"Loading into the right side" has produced a whole lot of slicers who don't get the weight forward fast enough. Doing what Sean says and staying 55/45 or so throughout the entire backswing will often feel like the weight is moving left during the backswing, but that's only because so many golfers have moved so far to the right that staying centered - which is all he's asking you to do - will feel like you're moving to the left .

Centered, then forward. Much, much easier than "back, then forwards" or "start with it all back, keep it there, then go forwards."

[johnthejoiner]

"A reverse pivot is "forward, then backward."

Is this your interpretation of a reverse pivot

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

"A reverse pivot is "forward, then backward."

Is this your interpretation of a reverse pivot

Nope. It's the common definition, with the key part being "weight moving backwards on the backswing."

[Phil McGleno]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

"A reverse pivot is "forward, then backward."

Is this your interpretation of a reverse pivot

It's everyone's who knows anything's definition. The pivot is two parts and includes the backswing and downswing. It ain't a reverse pivot if your weight simply stays forward the whole time.

reverse pivot

(also "reverse weight transfer, reverse weight shift") when the weight is on the front foot (closest to the target) on the backswing and the rear foot (farthest from the target) on the downswing and follow-through

http://crushit.com/golf_glossary/r.html

[newtogolf]

Obviously not a pro here, but I can say from personal experience that I agree with Erik.  My first instructor had me do the back then forward, and I was slicing all the time.  His fix was to have me use such a strong grip that it would make anything less than a full swing become a hook.

My current instructor told me it's very tough to go back then time everything right going forward.  Instead he has me stay centered and use my hips as the trigger to move forward.  I now use a neutral grip and hit pretty much everything straight.

Maybe very athletic or experienced golfers can handle the back and forward, but for me I'm sticking with centered and forward. One other thing I noticed as a result of staying centered is it's much easier to hit down on the ball and maintain a flying wedge where as with my old swing, I always felt i was throwing the club at the ball and releasing too early.

Originally Posted by iacas

Centered, then forward. Much, much easier than "back, then forwards" or "start with it all back, keep it there, then go forwards."

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by chris_284

I saw this video on the side of YouTube the other day and decided to click on it. I realized, what he is doing in this video, is exactly what I was doing at the start of this season (4 weeks ago).

However, I took a lesson and the instructor told me I had a reverse weight shift / reverse pivot. I don't know if I misinterpreted his instruction or he gave me the wrong instruction but I am now doing more of what Sean mentions at 0:33-0:37.

What is correct here?

Sean Foley doesnt teach players to do this in his dvd or with his pga players on the dvd. Truly though, you need to find what works for you. Ive done both and I prefer to stay centered with a slight weight shift to back thigh/leg on backswing, then weight forward on downswing.

[chris_284]

Here's a video of my swing which I forgot to post earlier.

This first one is of Apr 22

This next video is a side by side. The left is May 4, right is May 19.

Here's a picture of address and the top of the back swing from Apr 22, and May 19. I just stood up and went through a practice swing and I don't think its as bad as I think. I just want some clarification so I don't create a bad habit. I feel like what I'm doing now is 60 back, 40 front at the top of the backswing. I would say I feel like 55 front, 45 back at address as sean mentions.  4 weeks ago I think I was probably the same at address, 70 front 30 back at the top of the backswing (as opposed to 40 front 60 back now)

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by chris_284

Here's a video of my swing which I forgot to post earlier.

This first one is of Apr 22

This next video is a side by side. The left is May 4, right is May 19.

Here's a picture of address and the top of the back swing from Apr 22, and May 19. I just stood up and went through a practice swing and I don't think its as bad as I think. I just want some clarification so I don't create a bad habit. I feel like what I'm doing now is 60 back, 40 front at the top of the backswing. I would say I feel like 55 front, 45 back at address as sean mentions.  4 weeks ago I think I was probably the same at address, 70 front 30 back at the top of the backswing (as opposed to 40 front 60 back now)

yea my advice is keep doing what your doing now instead of what you were doing by keeping it so forward the entire swing. You dont have a Down the line view but I think your followthrough/finish needs some work. Your hands and arms are like straight up in the air for your finish.

[JackLee]

I keep my head and shoulders pretty much centered in my backswing and until well after impact.  When I make my backswing, the weight of my arms, hands, and club make a little natural weight shift to the inside of my right foot.  Of course this weight moves back left at some point in my down and through swing, and I finish with most of my weight on my left foot.  I cannot imagine doing it any other way.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

"A reverse pivot is "forward, then backward."

Is this your interpretation of a reverse pivot

A regular pivot would be shifting the weight to the back on the backswing and then forward on the downswing... a reverse pivot would be the exact opposite of that (who would have thought).  So yeah, a reverse pivot is the weight moving forward on the backswing and then back on the downswing.

To the OP; if you are doing what Foley instructs than that is not a reverse pivot as the weight never moves to the back on the downswing.  Some people who are uneducated about the golf swing seem to think that starting with your weight forward or never moving it to the back foot on the back swing is the same thing as a reverse pivot, but it's not.

[johnthejoiner]

One thing i see and often among good players  is this tendency to get stuck on the left side.

Now, it may not look that serious with a mid- to short iron, but as you move into the longer clubs the danger is this reluctance to move across on to the right side and that can become a reverse-pivot that costs you both distance and accuracy, the swing is both narrow and out of sync.

[Phil McGleno]

Originally Posted by motteler621

Sean Foley doesnt teach players to do this in his dvd or with his pga players on the dvd.

To do what? To stay centered? Sure he does.

Originally Posted by chris_284

Here's a picture of address and the top of the back swing from Apr 22, and May 19. I just stood up and went through a practice swing and I don't think its as bad as I think. I just want some clarification so I don't create a bad habit. I feel like what I'm doing now is 60 back, 40 front at the top of the backswing. I would say I feel like 55 front, 45 back at address as sean mentions.  4 weeks ago I think I was probably the same at address, 70 front 30 back at the top of the backswing (as opposed to 40 front 60 back now)

Be careful. Feel isn't real and you're not even close to being 70/30.

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

One thing i see and often among good players  is this tendency to get stuck on the left side.

Now, it may not look that serious with a mid- to short iron, but as you move into the longer clubs the danger is this reluctance to move across on to the right side and that can become a reverse-pivot that costs you both distance and accuracy, the swing is both narrow and out of sync.

They can, but they too wouldn't be doing what the videos suggest they do: stay centered, then move forward. That's the tip Not "forward, then back."

Do good players sometimes do what you're saying? Yeah. But less of them do that than poor players.

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

To do what? To stay centered? Sure he does.

no he doesnt. I dont even follow all of foleys instruction but he doesnt. I could give you all the quotes on the dvd where he points this out, from his golf digest series where he talks about this, and from what he;s having Tiger do in his Golf Digest instruction interview last issue (he says it in black and white).

[Phil McGleno]

Originally Posted by motteler621

no he doesnt. I dont even follow all of foleys instruction but he doesnt. I could give you all the quotes on the dvd where he points this out, from his golf digest series where he talks about this, and from what he;s having Tiger do in his Golf Digest instruction interview last issue (he says it in black and white).

As Martin Hall would say, "Rubbish!"

[iacas]

Originally Posted by motteler621

no he doesnt. I dont even follow all of foleys instruction but he doesnt. I could give you all the quotes on the dvd where he points this out, from his golf digest series where he talks about this, and from what he;s having Tiger do in his Golf Digest instruction interview last issue (he says it in black and white).

Aaron, I'm not sure what you mean. In no way does Foley advocate anything except staying pretty well centered on the backswing. Go ahead and find the links to these and highlight exactly the language you're seeing, because I've studied this material a fair amount, and I completely disagree.

Quote from Golf Digest, May 2011, Page 104: "1. Keeping it Together: He now has a good connection between his arms and body. His left arm is in closer, but not super tight, and the clubhead is a little more in line with his hands. From here, he'll just turn to the top. He's loading into his right side but staying pretty centered ." If you're trying to read into "loading into his right side" you're missing out on "staying pretty centered."

The Sean O'Hair video is inaccurate in its portrayal of S&T; and O'Hair's "feel versus real" but watch that video at about 0:25 and you'll see he says three things:

1. he never wants his head to move back
2. he "loads" into his right side - he even calls it a weight shift - with his hips staying centered as well - his right hip moves away from the stick slightly.
3. at 1:35 O'Hair says "he likes to just stay centered over the ball" (it's right after he gets some S&T; pieces wrong).

In this video it's pretty obvious that it's "centered." And at no point in his DVD does he talk about anything except staying centered, then going forward.

And we have the above video where Sean is telling players to do this. Plus everyone will recall last year when Tiger first started working with Foley that the first thing they did was to explain the left tilt and to put a shaft against Tiger's head to stop his head from drifting back on the backswing or downswing.

Tiger's head looks pretty centered here from his setup (hips have started to push forward):

I think you're wrong. Please prove your case.