New Groove Rule

[Greg]

Im not that concerned about having conforming grooves or not, ill use my current irons probably until they wear out as I dont plan on entering any tournaments where it would matter. Wouldnt having less spin allow you to hit your irons further as the shots would probably release more instead of stopping right away and spinning backward? Especially out of the rough, I think it might help less skilled players(like myself) reach the green with a shorter iron instead of having to club up and hope you can get it there. Obviously the best players benefit from more spin but the average bogey golfer cant get the full benefits from it. Like if you hit a shot a bit fat(my usual mishit), a shot that would normally be short might bounce and roll on the green. For the average golfer, it might not be all bad. Something to think about.

[nike_golf]

Im not that concerned about having conforming grooves or not, ill use my current irons probably until they wear out as I dont plan on entering any tournaments where it would matter. Wouldnt having less spin allow you to hit your irons further as the shots would probably release more instead of stopping right away and spinning backward? Especially out of the rough, I think it might help less skilled players(like myself) reach the green with a shorter iron instead of having to club up and hope you can get it there. Obviously the best players benefit from more spin but the average bogey golfer cant get the full benefits from it. Like if you hit a shot a bit fat(my usual mishit), a shot that would normally be short might bounce and roll on the green. For the average golfer, it might not be all bad. Something to think about.

No, I don't think amateurs have to worry about conforming for quite a while, tournaments or not.

As far as the grooves possibly helping mid- higher HCP's. I doubt the groove change really affects that type of golfer either way. In essence, yes, the ball will run more, but do high HCP's hit their irons well enough to really notice much of a difference in the grooves? Probably not, no. But, as any golfer should want to do, don't you want to stick it from 150,100,50 yards out? Why would you want to rely on having the ball run to the green?

[Greg]

No, I don't think amateurs have to worry about conforming for quite a while, tournaments or not.

Yes, but as I said, it wont apply to me for many years, maybe by the time I decide to get new irons, ill have improved enough that it might matter though prob not. Obviously it is better to have the ball stick when you hit it on the green, even get it to spin and roll back. If i can do that with my current irons, ive really done something. I knew that reply would probably get some responses, sometimes I make comments just to see what others will say. Though on some of the closer shots, say chipping from closer in, a bump and run is what I use a lot of time so how much the ball will release does matter. But as you stated, I probably wouldnt notice the difference, even if I can get my handicap down significantly in the next few years. Pro golfers are so much better than the average person its unreal. Im happy to just hit any part of the green from say 150 yards, they are upset if its not within 10 feet from that distance. I might hit a shot that good maybe once a month if im lucky in the summer when im playing 2-3 times a week or more. They expect it every time but devote their whole life to practice and playing. Maybe if I won the lottery and didnt have to work I could do that but I have to work a normal job with odd hours to make money, golf is just for fun. As posting on here, I do it just for fun as well, not trying to pretend to be an expert or upset anyone with anything I say, im just a high handicapper with an opinion and its sometimes inaccurate. It is a good forum to learn from as many of you know much more about the game than myself. Maybe that will help me become a better player. At least better informed anyway and maybe more confident. Ive got plenty of room for improvement.

[nike_golf]

Yes, but as I said, it wont apply to me for many years, maybe by the time I decide to get new irons, ill have improved enough that it might matter though prob not. Obviously it is better to have the ball stick when you hit it on the green, even get it to spin and roll back. If i can do that with my current irons, ive really done something. I knew that reply would probably get some responses, sometimes I make comments just to see what others will say. Though on some of the closer shots, say chipping from closer in, a bump and run is what I use a lot of time so how much the ball will release does matter. But as you stated, I probably wouldnt notice the difference, even if I can get my handicap down significantly in the next few years. Pro golfers are so much better than the average person its unreal. Im happy to just hit any part of the green from say 150 yards, they are upset if its not within 10 feet from that distance. I might hit a shot that good maybe once a month if im lucky in the summer when im playing 2-3 times a week or more. They expect it every time but devote their whole life to practice and playing. Maybe if I won the lottery and didnt have to work I could do that but I have to work a normal job with odd hours to make money, golf is just for fun. As posting on here, I do it just for fun as well, not trying to pretend to be an expert or upset anyone with anything I say, im just a high handicapper with an opinion and its sometimes inaccurate. It is a good forum to learn from as many of you know much more about the game than myself. Maybe that will help me become a better player. At least better informed anyway and maybe more confident. Ive got plenty of room for improvement.

Nothing wrong w/ what you said. Good stuff.

And hey, I'm more of a bump and run kind of guy around the green myself. I haven't played a club w/ the new grooves so I can't be sure but I really doubt it will make a significant difference on shots such as those. Trust me, don't worry about the grooves. And if you want to really get better at golf, great. Devote some extra time to it, be serious about it and work on it, and you'll get better. It comes down to how much you care and desire to be a good golfer.

[Fourputt]

Ummmm, the new grooves create LESS SPIN, not more. The new grooves are V in shape, instead of U in shape. The new grooves don't "catch" the ball as much as the old grooves, thus less spin on it.

Actually the new groove rule doesn't specifiy a shape at all. It limits the cross-sectional area, specifies a minimum spacing between the grooves, and mandates at least at .010" radius on the edges. The shape is up to the manufacturer as long as they meet those requirements. I"ve been playing Titleist AP2 irons for a year now, and the results seem to be as the USGA desires... good spin from FW lies and low spin with occasional flyers from the rough.

[dbuck]

Greg's post reminds me of the old Sam Snead joke. (With which I agree a little bit.) I know everyone's heard it but it always gives me a chuckle, so forgive my posting it now. ( and forgive my inaccuracies.)

Lady in crowd: So, how do I make my 5 iron stop

Sam Snead: How far do you hit your 5 iron?

Lady: About 140.

Sam Snead: Then why the he** do you want it to stop?!

[leezer99]

Anyone else tired of hearing about the effects of the new grooves. If I have to hear Faldo mention one more time that it's the shot from 50 yards in from the rough where it makes the biggest difference I might go insane. Seriously, it's the third tournament of the year and I've had enough already. Here are 41 articles on the golf channel site if you really need to read more about it. http://www.thegolfchannel.com/core.a...search=grooves

[James_Black]

Iacas posted a vid showing the differences in the round and the fairway.

Spin was the same off the fairway but out of the rough there was a huge difference, the new grooves couldn't keep the ball on the green and there were a few flyers.

[MCC]

Since January 2024 is the first possible date that the MAJORITY of golfers will need to have the new grooves to post scores for handicap purposes WHY can manufactures no longer manufacture products with pre-2010 grooves staring in January 2011?

Why can't they manfacture the pre-2010 grooves until January 2024? If the majority of playes can use them why not manufacture them? Doesn't make sense to me.

The obvious answer would be money but is that the only reason?

I carry 3 Vokey wedges in my bag at $119 a piece. If I want to replace my wedges once a year (which is recommended) and use the pre-2010 grooves until January 2024, I'll have to pony up almost $5,000 by the end of the year to buy a 14 year supply.

This rule bothers the sh*t out of me because if you don't pony up to buy a 14 year supply of wedges somebody else will and now you are in a situation where you are playing against someone with an unfair advantage.

[andef]

I'm sure you can spend 5,000 $ on wedges now and keep them until 2024 or just buy the new grooves and learn to play the same shots tour pros do. when my vokeys are worn out, i'll look to replace them by purchasing them on a british website, otherwise i will play the spin milled c-c. for me, switching to a wedge which doesn't spin the ball as much will help since most of my shots end up far away from the hole due to the backspin.
they made the decision so it's up to you whether to spend the money or not. just as a suggestion, maybe u could buy enough wedges to last 3/4 years and at the same time start practicing with v-grooved wedges. i'm sure that by then you'll have practiced enough to be comfortable gaming them.

[treebound]

Who recommended that you replace your wedges yearly?

In another thread I inquired about this and then web searched and found a link to what lofts the rule kicks in for, and the rule seems to apply to more than just wedges (I think it was 24* of loft, but check me on that, which seems to get into the mid-distance irons on my clubs).

What I'm thinking is that there should start to be a whole lot of nice (very nice) clubs showing up on the used market (and at rumage sales and thrift shops). For me personally, unless my game adjusts down to single digit handicap or unless I want to enter an Open or Q-School qualifier I should be one happy puppy for the next ten years or so.

But I really am curious about that yearly replacement schedule. Are you just playing a lot or playing in areas with abrasive hazard conditions?

And I suspect the ball manufacturers have been hard at work developing new ball textures to work with the new groove parameters.

Should be an interesting discussion.

[MCC]

I do play a lot (70+ rounds per year) plus a lot of practicing. Nobody specifically recommended replacing my wedges every year but from what I have read and based on the wear & tear I have noticed on my wedges, they need to be replaced once a year. My 52 & 56 could probably be replaced every two years but my 60 gets a lot of use.

It's my understanding that Vijay Sing plays with a new wedge every round.

[zeg]

Since January 2024 is the first possible date that the MAJORITY of golfers will need to have the new grooves to post scores for handicap purposes WHY can manufactures no longer manufacture products with pre-2010 grooves staring in January 2011?

Well, I think the point is that they don't want to force amateurs to buy new clubs. This way you have 14 years to wear out your current clubs before you MUST replace them. Also, unless you're actually playing at the level where you're going to need to conform earlier (i.e., pro or very high level amateur), you probably won't be affected by the new groove rule anyway since you probably aren't playing at a level where your spin is limited by the grooves. Thus investing $5k for that "edge" is a waste.

So I'd say yes, it's about money, but not in the direction you're implying. It means I can keep using my wedge until it's worn out without feeling dodgy about using non-conforming equipment, so I don't *have* to spend $80 for a new one.

[treebound]

Okay, sure wish I could get 70 rounds in this summer.

I had to go re-read your post to see what you were really asking and what I get is #1: manufacturing and #2: fairness.

#1: Manufacturers probably don't "have" to adjust their clubs to the new rule, but if they want to stay conforming to USGA parameters and if they want to sell to consumers who also want to stay conforming then good business practices will drive a company to revise their club grooves. And if this adds additional costs then those costs will probably be passed on to us. Such is life.

#2: As long as players are playing fair and using the same clubs in rounds used to establishGmaintain their handicap as they use in tournaments then there will be fairness. But if a player uses new grooved clubs for practice and non-tournament rounds but then stuffs the "old" clubs into their bag for tournaments then they could be considered as sandbaggers or cheaters perhaps.

Let me ask you this: let's say I get my game in check and work my handicap down to around your rating and if you and I enter the same tournament, but if you are using clubs from your stash but I am using clubs conforming to the new rules, is it fair? Keep the assumption in mind that we both use a single set of our own clubs for tournament and non-tournament golf.

My thoughts are that since we'd both be rated the same, even though you'd have sharper biting clubs, it would be fair because you'd play to an 8 over with the sharp grooves and I'd play to an 8 over with the updated rounded grooves (I wish, someday maybe). You'd get more bite where I'd have adjusted my play to less bite.
Just my amateur high-handicap thoughts.

And I did go to a thrift shop at lunch, nobody had donated any newer clubs yet but I did find a 20+ year old Ram Laser sand wedge to fill out my set at home. Now I just have to fill out the woods, I still use the Rams every so often just for fun, lots of memories in those clubs. And if we ever do get into a Tourney against each other I'll have to break out my ancient Fernquest&Johnson; square toed wedge and give your Vokeys a run for the money. 8-)

I'll stop typing now, my thumbs are getting tired....

[MCC]

Zeg, you make some good points. I agree with you that I am not playing at a level where my spin is going to be limited by the grooves in the fairway. However, grooves are also used to whisk away grass in the rough to enable you to make better contact with the ball. The wider and deeper the grooves, the more it will whisk away grass (much like a tire tread expells water from underneath a tire). It's my understanding, the new grooves are 70% as deep/wide as the pre-2010 grooves. I'm curious how much difference that makes in the rough? Does anyone have any experience with the new grooves vs. the old grooves?

[MCC]

Treebound, thanks for the response. January 2011 -- Manufacturers can no longer manufacture products with the pre-2010 grooves and can no longer ship products with the pre-2010 grooves. Retailers can continue to sell clubs shipped to them before this date as conforming clubs indefinitely. This is a fact.

When you are comparing fairway shots with new vs. old grooves there is NOT supposed to be any difference because there is no grass between the clubface and the ball. However, shots from the rough are going to be affected. So, if we are both 8 handicappers and I am using the pre-2010 grooves and you are using the new grooves, I believe I would have a clear adavantage making better contact with my ball in the rough than you would. Better contact makes for a better shot.

[rssgolf]

Treebound, thanks for the response. January 2011 -- Manufacturers can no longer manufacture products with the pre-2010 grooves and can no longer ship products with the pre-2010 grooves. Retailers can continue to sell clubs shipped to them before this date as conforming clubs indefinitely. This is a fact.

MCC I believe that you are already playing with conforming grooves on your AP2 irons, have you seen any difference with those?

[goslin23]

Can I have your old wedges when you replace them yearly? I'm fairly sure I can get many more rounds out of them! :)