New Groove Rule

[shades9323]

I used to feel the same way until I demoed a bunch of Vokey Spin Milled wedges. It was the only time in 30 some years of playing the game that I was amazed by the difference a club could make. It was fun to fire a ball at the pin and watch it stop stiff. I haven't tried the new grooves, so I guess I should. Maybe they're just as nice from a good lie as the non-conforming grooves.

You aren't an average player...

[colin007]

my question is, will there be companies that continue to manufacture the old grooves and just be up front about it, labeling them as non-conforming? im sure people will buy them.

[andef]

I'm not too happy about the groove rule but on one hand, I spin my current wedges a lot on full shots even when i play a low spin ball so on some occasions it will help.
However, i first experienced the effect of the new groove rule this weekend: I was hitting my AP2 PW (v grooves) from the rough and I landed the ball about 5 yards left of the hole (pin high) watching it roll for 10 yards to the back of the green. That was quite frustrating but I have yet to experience a real flier (where the ball flies well past the hole) with the grooves.

[injury]

I'm sure some companies will, haven't the Spin DR wedges been non conforming all along? I would doubt the big OEM's will, since golf is about integrity and which one of them would want to have the label "cheater club" associated with them?

From the wording that I have seen nothing prevents any manufacturer from making a non conforming club. However a manufacturer that wanted to make it easy on a consumer would likely decide to not to make their clubs nonconforming. People certainly wouldn't want a situation with golf like they have going with softball. This bat is legal with that association, but too hot for that one, this version of that bat that has 97 on it is good the almost identicle version without it isn't etc and people carrying around pictures of legal/non legal bats. It is pretty rediculous.

[MikeBuch]

Isn't there a rule that they just aren't allowed to?

A rule is only as good as the consequences for breaking it. USGA provides the consequence that non-conforming clubs won't be USGA approved. Because the market for non-USGA clubs is so thin and these companies so big, USGA effectively has control over what these companies can manufacture.

[bong_crosby]

You aren't an average player...

You've never seen me putt.

I'm not selling myself short, I'm a tremendous slouch.

[MikeBuch]

I would doubt the big OEM's will, since golf is about integrity and which one of them would want to have the label "cheater club" associated with them?.

Agree and disagree. The big OEMs don't want to have that label associated with them; and making these clubs, in my opinion, unfairly gives them that label. However, cheating has more to do with dishonesty, deception, and gaining an unfair advantage. Alone, manufacturing these clubs is not cheating. Representing that they are something different than they are (i.e. conforming) is dishonest. Golf exists without the USGA--but the vast majority of golfers here follow their guidelines to some extent while playing golf (perhaps even impliedly). If the non-conforming wedges add to your enjoyment and you're not deceiving anybody, why not play them?

Integrity is an important part of the game, but within the constraints of fair play isn't it all about enjoyment (at least for amateurs)?

[bong_crosby]

I just don't understand how a club manufactured on December 31, 2010 at 11:59 p.m. is any different than the exact same club manufactured on Jan 1, 2011 at 12:01 a.m. And I can't believe the manufacturers just rolled over and accepted this demand from the USGA and R&A.;

[andef]

The real question is: Will amatuers really notice a difference which the new groove rule in effect?
Personally, I'm going to say that mainly low handicappers will see a difference but not the typical 90 shooter.
I understand it is unfair but the rule has been passed and there is nothing we can do about it. You'll be able to play your wedges until 2024 and if you want some that will last that long than you should buy 5/6 sets of your current wedges. You can also switch to a softer ball to gain that spin you are loosing with the new grooves.
I have played quite a few rounds with my current irons and have not really noted a huge difference in the perfomance of the clubs. My current irons perform the same with the V grooves. short irons out of the rough will hop once and release for about 10 feet compared to the hop and stop/release a couple of feet.
I'm sure manufacturers are going to produce a huge amount of clubs before the end of the year so that they will at least last a couple of years.

[golfro]

The real question is: Will amatuers really notice a difference which the new groove rule in effect?

my guess is no, amateurs won't notice a difference. It's already been proven that the only contact the ball actually makes with the grooves is roughly 4 or 5 thousandths of the top of the groove which is something like 20,000 to 25,000 of an inch deep into the groove. With that said, will the difference be as significant as people think it is? My guess is not.

[clubchamp]

The real question is: Will amatuers really notice a difference which the new groove rule in effect?

I agree I really don't think this change will make that big of an impact. People make it sound like by having the old groove wedges they are instantly hitting spinners all over. It's not true you still have to hit the proper shot to spin the ball thus why lower handicap players hit runners or spinners with either type of wedges.

[zeg]

I just don't understand how a club manufactured on December 31, 2010 at 11:59 p.m. is any different than the exact same club manufactured on Jan 1, 2011 at 12:01 a.m. And I can't believe the manufacturers just rolled over and accepted this demand from the USGA and R&A.;

Of course there's no difference, but come on, if they're ever going to make a change, the rule has to change at some point. They picked a date and gave everyone plenty of warning. Again, they are doing you a FAVOR by letting you use your old clubs, they're not taking anything away. If you want to criticize them, criticize the decision to change the groove specs. IMO, this is just about the best way they could roll out such a change without forcing tens of thousands of rank amateurs to go out and buy new clubs. The rule changes to require the new grooves this year (I think I got the date wrong in my earlier post). However, so that you don't have to immediately fork over the cash to replace your club.

The real question is: Will amatuers really notice a difference which the new groove rule in effect?

I don't think there's any way that 95% of amateurs will ever notice the difference. And I disagree that it's "unfair." The rule is the rule, and this seems to me an eminently reasonable approach to the difficult question of how to rid the community of its stock of clubs that no longer conform to the rule without forcing recreational players to choose between the rules and having to shell out cash.

It's easy to point out flaws in the system they've chosen to make this transition. But that doesn't help anyone---what could they have done that would address this better? I don't see anyone making any real suggestions. At least, none beyond "don't change the rules" but, come on, equipment rules like this change occasionally in virtually every sport; golf is sort of special here because it's both equipment intensive and has vast numbers of players who work very hard to conform to a single set of official rules.

[iacas]

I just don't understand how a club manufactured on December 31, 2010 at 11:59 p.m. is any different than the exact same club manufactured on Jan 1, 2011 at 12:01 a.m.

The former is legal, the latter is not. That's the difference. As someone said, they had to pick a date, so they did and gave plenty of notice.

And I can't believe the manufacturers just rolled over and accepted this demand from the USGA and R&A.;

Why not? It created a (probably small) surge in wedge sales this year and last year and will make people buy new wedges in 2014 or so, too.

The real question is: Will amatuers really notice a difference which the new groove rule in effect?

No, and I'd go so far as to say amateurs will benefit from having a more consistent shot. I've seen a lot of amateurs who can't chip or pitch really really well surprise themselves when a shot checks up 20 feet short of the flag. With the new grooves that shot will run out like the other 19 of their 20 typical shots.

The low single digit handicappers will notice, but will adjust quickly, too.

[TetsuJin]

How many of you guys remember the ERCII? C.O.R. value of 0.83 ring any bells?

It is similar story but with twisted ending. The ERCII was originally developed for the Japanese market. It did so well in Japan that Callaway brought it to the US. The USGA successfully stigmatized the club leading to a very polarized group of followers. Media and golfers in the US screamed bloody murder over this topic, while golfers in Europe and Asia were busting drives. USGA officials even questioned Arnold Palmer's integrity over the matter since he was a shareholder in Callaway at the time. The funny thing is in Jan 1, 2003 the USGA changed the C.O.R. value to 0.86 and the club was made legal for a five year period. I wonder who's integrity we should be questioning after that deal was brokered? The USGA seems mighty fickle if you ask me.

The point of the USGA is and R&A; is to maintain the "integrity" of the game of golf. Keep in mind, these two ruling bodies are not looking to hinder the game to make it less fun for non-professionals. The benefits of these illegal clubs benefit professional golfers the most. For example the ERCII was banned for having too high of a C.O.R value. What does this mean? You can think of it as a multiplying factor that to your swing speed. All other things held constant the higher the swing speed the farther the ball goes. Pros consistently generate more club head speed than amateurs.

Some people say playing golf with an illegal golf club should not count for you handicap, and I totally agree, but if you really think about it how many golfers keep a legitimate handicap. Honestly, how many people out there can name all the rules in the USGA rule handbook? I mean even pros need rulings and they do it for a living! I a digress...

Going back to the idea of illegal grooves or illegal clubs in general, I think it is such an interesting topic. I mean, you have countries all over the world with their own set of rules, but when it comes to competition they general follow the USGA and R&A; regulations. Maybe there should be a separate governing body for non-professionals. It would be similar to the slight variations in rules when you compare the NBA, NCAA, and Olympic rules for basketball. What do you guys think?

[Fourputt]

I agree given the fact that the number of players worldwide that can continue to play these grooves for fifteen more years compared to the number of players worldwide that must use the new grooves. They are forced to stop making clubs for millions of players while only a very small percentage is required to play the new ones.

Horsehockey!!

If what you think is true then the USGA and the R&A; would have made the rule effective immediately and forced everyone to buy new clubs next year. As it it you have 14 years to wear out your present set or sets before the new configuration will be required in club level competitions. I'd say that's pretty generous and open-minded of them.

[Sing Golfer]

I recently bought some MP-58 irons - which have the new grooves - and they are matched up with spin milled vokey wedges. I there will be a big difference for most golfers.

I am old enough to remember flyers, shots going 20 or 30 yards longer than normal out of the rough. I am getting those again. If I am 135 out in the rough my new 9 iron can go 135 to 165 and I don't have anyway telling which it will be.

Now maybe a lot of golfers might not realise that they are getting flyers (in the future) and given most people underclub it might be a good thing, but I am finding it so noticeable that I am considering changing irons to a full set of square grooves...or I could just start hitting it straighter...which is the point of the rule I guess.

[pbillaa]

I just don't understand how a club manufactured on December 31, 2010 at 11:59 p.m. is any different than the exact same club manufactured on Jan 1, 2011 at 12:01 a.m. And I can't believe the manufacturers just rolled over and accepted this demand from the USGA and R&A.;

The manufacturers have been making clubs within the usga rules forever. Driver head size and trampoline effect, golf ball distance, and many others. Why are people not outraged by these limitations? The outrage regarding this rule is comical. I say bring on the new groves, I will no longer shread balls.

[motteler621]

The real question is: Will amatuers really notice a difference which the new groove rule in effect?

yea I havent noticed that much of a difference with my irons with the v grooves either. I have hit plently of shots and had them stick on the green but I havent hit any wedges with v grooves, I would think that would be the big loss